Speculation regarding the return.

I'm sure cloning was as strictly controlled by the TF as PICAs were. After all, that's a completely new human being you're creating, so I'm sure legislation would have been put in place to prevent making clones for organ transplants, personality transfers, etc. A clone would have the legal rights of any naturally conceived human.

McGuiness wrote:If the archangels are traveling at relativistic speeds and are light years away, using the key to call them back to Safehold would require an FTL signal, or a fairly powerful signal to the Oort cloud or wherever a ship on a long, elliptical orbit with archangels in cryo inside it happens to be. In either case sending such a signal is a very bad idea with the Gbaba looking for that sort of thing!

Since there's conflicting reports that all the ships of Operation Ark were actually destroyed, including the Hamilcar, I can't find the textev that verifies it. If it's true, there aren't any archangels scheduled to
return by spaceship.

SWM wrote:

McGuiness wrote:Since there's conflicting reports that all the ships of Operation Ark were actually destroyed, including the Hamilcar, I can't find the textev that verifies it. If it's true, there aren't any archangels scheduled to
return by spaceship.

Actually, we do not have confirmation that the Hamilcar was destroyed. We have textev that all the other ships were destroyed. What David has said about the Hamilcar is that it is "gone". It is not in orbit, and OWL does not know what happened to it (OWL did not monitor the outside world). All we know about the fate of the Hamilcar is the following:
Before the Angelic Wars, Langhorne planned for the Hamilcar to be destroyed.
After the Angelic Wars, the Hamilcar was used to rebuild the Rakurai.
The Hamilcar is not in orbit now.

Other than that, we don't know what happened to the Hamilcar.

SWM wrote:

McGuiness wrote:If the archangels are traveling at relativistic speeds and are light years away, using the key to call them back to Safehold would require an FTL signal, or a fairly powerful signal to the Oort cloud or wherever a ship on a long, elliptical orbit with archangels in cryo inside it happens to be. In either case sending such a signal is a very bad idea with the Gbaba looking for that sort of thing!

Why do people keep trying to associate the Key to the Return? There is absolutely no reason to think they are related. There is no reason to believe that the Key triggers the Return of the Angels.

McGuiness wrote:

SWM wrote:If the archangels are traveling at relativistic speeds and are light years away, using the key to call them back to Safehold would require an FTL signal, or a fairly powerful signal to the Oort cloud or wherever a ship on a long, elliptical orbit with archangels in cryo inside it happens to be. In either case sending such a signal is a very bad idea with the Gbaba looking for that sort of thing!
I'm not trying to show that they're related - we don't know if whatever responds to the use of the key is the same thing that will cause the "return" of the archangels. The use of the key and the return may be completely unrelated and result in completely different events. I fully expect that the archangels will "return" after 1000 years, although that might be sped up if something our heroes do catches the attention of whatever is under the temple. It's possible that the archangels will return on schedule even if the key is used - although if I were Merlin, I'd prefer that the key remain far, far away from the temple! He feared that it might elicit a response from the Rakurai after all.

I merely pointed out where the key and the return might use the same method. I didn't say that they would, or that there's any relationship between the two.

Some theories, like APs running in an AI under the temple could be used for both. So could live archangels in cryo either under the temple or relatively close by in space measured by the time required for a response. The mere fact that a method could be used for both doesn't mean that it would be. Only RFC knows for sure, and the good guys would really prefer that the key never be used. Since they have it safely stored away in Nimue's cave, it's highly unlikely that it ever will be, so we may never know what would happen. OWL and Nahrmahn may figure it out, but unless someone sneaks the key out of the cave (Aivah or Sandaria?) Safehold is safe from anyone summoning help to aid the church in its hour of true need.

AirTech wrote:The other question then is what is loaded on the key? The other possibility could be an industrial/astronautical grade PICA, (as opposed to Nimue's sports model) which would match the single shot warning the Wylsins received. I can see a starship having industrial PICA's for outside maintenance, particularly in a combat situation. An industrial (possibly heavily armored against micro meteor impacts) PICA couldn't pass for human but could put the fear of god into anyone who went against it without heavy weaponry. Ten days on the timer would time out and (without access to a serious hacker) the PICA is unable to download and goes off line.

McGuiness wrote:

SWM wrote:Why do people keep trying to associate the Key to the Return? There is absolutely no reason to think they are related. There is no reason to believe that the Key triggers the Return of the Angels.

I'm not trying to show that they're related - we don't know if whatever responds to the use of the key is the same thing that will cause the "return" of the archangels. The use of the key and the return may be completely unrelated and result in completely different events. I fully expect that the archangels will "return" after 1000 years, although that might be sped up if something our heroes do catches the attention of whatever is under the temple. It's possible that the archangels will return on schedule even if the key is used - although if I were Merlin, I'd prefer that the key remain far, far away from the temple! He feared that it might elicit a response from the Rakurai after all.

I merely pointed out where the key and the return might use the same method. I didn't say that they would, or that there's any relationship between the two.

Some theories, like APs running in an AI under the temple could be used for both. So could live archangels in cryo either under the temple or relatively close by in space measured by the time required for a response. The mere fact that a method could be used for both doesn't mean that it would be. Only RFC knows for sure, and the good guys would really prefer that the key never be used. Since they have it safely stored away in Nimue's cave, it's highly unlikely that it ever will be, so we may never know what would happen. OWL and Nahrmahn may figure it out, but unless someone sneaks the key out of the cave (Aivah or Sandaria?) Safehold is safe from anyone summoning help to aid the church in its hour of true need.

SWM wrote:

SWM wrote:Why do people keep trying to associate the Key to the Return? There is absolutely no reason to think they are related. There is no reason to believe that the Key triggers the Return of the Angels.

McGuiness wrote:I'm not trying to show that they're related - we don't know if whatever responds to the use of the key is the same thing that will cause the "return" of the archangels. The use of the key and the return may be completely unrelated and result in completely different events. I fully expect that the archangels will "return" after 1000 years, although that might be sped up if something our heroes do catches the attention of whatever is under the temple. It's possible that the archangels will return on schedule even if the key is used - although if I were Merlin, I'd prefer that the key remain far, far away from the temple! He feared that it might elicit a response from the Rakurai after all.

I merely pointed out where the key and the return might use the same method. I didn't say that they would, or that there's any relationship between the two.

Some theories, like APs running in an AI under the temple could be used for both. So could live archangels in cryo either under the temple or relatively close by in space measured by the time required for a response. The mere fact that a method could be used for both doesn't mean that it would be. Only RFC knows for sure, and the good guys would really prefer that the key never be used. Since they have it safely stored away in Nimue's cave, it's highly unlikely that it ever will be, so we may never know what would happen. OWL and Nahrmahn may figure it out, but unless someone sneaks the key out of the cave (Aivah or Sandaria?) Safehold is safe from anyone summoning help to aid the church in its hour of true need.

You did specifically say "using the key to call them back." You didn't mention any other possible way of sending a signal. For instance, you didn't mention the Rakurai trying to contact the Angels, which is a concern actually shared by characters in the text. You would have been better off not mentioning the Key and just said "sending a signal to call them back." Sending a signal does not require the Key, and we have no textev to suggest that using the Key summons the Angels.

I objected mostly because almost every time someone mentions using the key, it is in conjunction with bringing the Angels back before the millennial Return. Somehow people are automatically associating the two. It looked like you unconsciously inserted the Key into that paragraph when there was no reason to mention the Key. It is that automatic association that I am trying to break.

I'm not saying there is definitely no association between the two. I just don't want the association to become so imbedded that it is accepted as an assumed fact.

MTAT - April, Year of God 896 - Ch 21 wrote:“That doesn’t make any sense.” He shook his head. “I didn’t have any neural receptors, either. In fact, now that I think about it, I distinctly remember your telling us it was the lack of receptors which meant we couldn’t use any of the neural education units in your cave to give us all complete educations.”

“That’s right.”

“But if that’s true, then how in God’s name did you … ‘record’ me in the first place?”

“You don’t have—didn’t have—the receptors, Nahrmahn. The NEATs are designed to impart information, not record it. They’re transmitters, and the human doesn’t come brain-equipped with a receiver. That has to be provided if the NEAT’s going to connect. But the human brain does radiate, if a receiver’s sensitive enough to pick up its transmissions, and that’s one of the things—the most important thing, really, under the circumstances—that headset I used is specifically designed to do.”

“But that’s not all it was designed to do, is it?” Nahrmahn watched her expression even more closely than before. “I’ve had personal experience now to disprove that cliché about your entire life passing in front of your eyes, so pardon me if I find it unlikely I was spontaneously ‘radiating’ all those memories for you just then. And I’ve learned enough about your technology to be pretty sure data had to be flowing both ways if you were going to record something as complex as a human personality and its memories.”

“Well, yes,” Nimue admitted. She drew another deep breath. “You were dying, Nahrmahn. We couldn’t stop that. So I overrode the programming on your bio nanotech and I enabled a tertiary function on the headset. I didn’t have it made specifically for you, you know. I actually intended it for me, but when I ordered Owl to run it up on his fabricators in the cave, he simply duplicated a standard piece of hardware Terran EMT—emergency medical technician—units routinely carried with them. You do remember how I used it to block the pain you’d been feeling?”

“Yes,” he said slowly.

“Well, that was what it was most often used for, its primary function. Its secondary function was to make recordings just like you and me.” She smiled briefly at his expression. “Of course, it was designed to do that using the NEAT connections all Terrans were equipped with—nothing else would give it enough bandwidth to record something so complex under such adverse conditions—but that’s where the nanotech I’ve injected all of you with comes in.” Her smile vanished. “When I activated the headset, Owl used its tertiary function to reprogram the nannies’ base parameters. He needed my authorization to do it, and he couldn’t’ve done it without the headset’s EMT functions, but, to be honest, if you hadn’t already been dying, Nahrmahn, it almost certainly would’ve killed you anyway.”

“Killed me?” Nahrmahn’s nostrils flared. “You mean our nanotech could kill any of us?”

“Yes.” Nimue met his gaze unflinchingly. “Under the right circumstances. As I said, however, Owl couldn’t do it without the headset’s interface and my personal and direct authorization as the nannies’ originator. It’s not some sort of ‘kill switch,’ Nahrmahn; it’s part of the standard package I used as the basis for all of you. And what it’s normally used for is targeted emergency repair of the nerves controlling your vital functions. It’s an emergency medical intervention technique that bypasses destroyed or severely damaged nerves to keep things like a critically injured person’s heart and lungs working until the medical teams can get him into a trauma center.”

“That … sounds reasonable.”

“It is. Unfortunately, it’s a … brute-force approach. It’s a quick-and-dirty, emergency-only technique to be used only in a last-ditch situation, because it requires pretty close to a complete regen afterwards.”

“‘Regen’?” he repeated the unfamiliar word carefully.

“Regeneration, Nahrmahn. In some cases, a complete body regen, which could take up to a couple of years, even with Federation medical tech. In other cases, a more limited regen, affecting only the specific nervous tissue that was, for want of a better term, scavenged to build the bypass.”

AirTech wrote:The other question then is what is loaded on the key? The other possibility could be an industrial/astronautical grade PICA, (as opposed to Nimue's sports model) which would match the single shot warning the Wylsins received. I can see a starship having industrial PICA's for outside maintenance, particularly in a combat situation. An industrial (possibly heavily armored against micro meteor impacts) PICA couldn't pass for human but could put the fear of god into anyone who went against it without heavy weaponry. Ten days on the timer would time out and (without access to a serious hacker) the PICA is unable to download and goes off line.

BobG wrote:I wonder if the key contains the personality extract from many people on Earth before they left.

-- Bob G