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Beating up Frontier Fleet, mercilessly

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Re: Beating up Frontier Fleet, mercilessly
Post by JeffEngel   » Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:31 pm

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StealthSeeker wrote:As far as I understand it, Manticore needs to keep as many cargo ships in business as possible in order to generate funds for rebuilding the systems infrastructure. So I don't think that the merchant marine will be sucked dry.
It certainly won't, but by the same token, what you don't take there you'll need to take or do without somewhere else. I'd peg the merchant marine as another place that is likely to lose a fair number of trained people to jobs elsewhere with the remainder working while training newcomers.
What I think a lot of people are forgetting is the repatriation of all the POWs from Haven, especially all the yard workers from (Grendelsbane?) that Haven captured when they resumed hostilities. So people are going to be available when new facilities become ready for activity.

It's a great help, certainly. Someone with the figures at hand could tell better than I can how the Grendelsbane techs measure up by count to the lost Hephaestus and Vulcan ones. My guess is that they're only a modest fraction, and they will have to brush rust off skills and settle down in new working arrangements. Much better to have them home and working than not, by all means and in many ways, but the gap is a lot larger than they are going to be able to plug.
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Re: Beating up Frontier Fleet, mercilessly
Post by StealthSeeker   » Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:40 pm

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JeffEngel wrote: snip
There's also the problem that drawing the enemy in and blowing them away with a Q-ship tends to rely on the enemy not having an interest in just blowing you up, which is what SLN commerce raiders will be planning.


If I were the SL and I was desperately short of cargo ships, the last thing I would be doing is blowing them up. I would be taking prize crews with me and I would be capturing as many cargo ships as I could to send back to the SL. If that were happening, who knows what a Q-ship might be able to do.
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Re: Beating up Frontier Fleet, mercilessly
Post by JeffEngel   » Fri Feb 27, 2015 6:02 pm

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StealthSeeker wrote:
JeffEngel wrote: snip
There's also the problem that drawing the enemy in and blowing them away with a Q-ship tends to rely on the enemy not having an interest in just blowing you up, which is what SLN commerce raiders will be planning.


If I were the SL and I was desperately short of cargo ships, the last thing I would be doing is blowing them up. I would be taking prize crews with me and I would be capturing as many cargo ships as I could to send back to the SL. If that were happening, who knows what a Q-ship might be able to do.

There's that. There's the old chestnut that q-ships don't work so well for getting kills after the word is out, but then, the SLN raiders will be in a lousy shape for passing on communications. (Especially the dead and the captive ones.)

I would hesitate to count on Kingsford's orders or flag officers' initiative making preparations to seize ships. The hidden LAC pods may make for one of the easier modifications (with additional utility too) for unexpected convoy protection. For that matter, some freighters and some old destroyers may be able to hide the second party inside the first party for a rude shock to raiders.

For that matter, plenty of systems are likely to have LAC groups and system defense missile pods en route. If you only make provisions to allow them to be launched by the freighters in case of emergency, those convoys get q-ships on the cheap.
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Re: Beating up Frontier Fleet, mercilessly
Post by StealthSeeker   » Fri Feb 27, 2015 6:11 pm

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Kizarvexis wrote:
Bill Woods wrote:Rather than Q-ships, think jeep carriers, equipped with pods and LACs. If you can deter an attack on a convoy, that's good enough.


RFC has talked about a LAC module you could install just inside a cargo door. It would hold some LACs and maintenance equip for giving a freighter temporary protection via LACs while in normal space and transitting grav waves in hyperspace.

If you can do that with a LAC module, you can add a pod module, but then you need fire control and the like, so LACs would probably be easier.


I really like this idea! Maybe each cargo ship could carry 2 LAC modules. A convoy of 8 ships would have 16 LACs. If you added to that a cruiser escort you would have a fairly formidable force to be reckoned with.

I wonder if half of the LACs could be "launched" in stealth mode and they could maneuver up real close and blow a few raiding ships away, after being given fair warning by the non-stealth-ed ships of course. It is my understanding the the FF ships wouldn't have the latest sensors available and it might be fairly easy to sneak up on them.

It also might be just a bit unnerving to a couple of raiding destroyers to have some LAC simply disappear into stealth mode after having tracked them for a while. Folks on those raiding destroyers might really start to wonder just what those LACs are up to.
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Re: Beating up Frontier Fleet, mercilessly
Post by StealthSeeker   » Fri Feb 27, 2015 6:31 pm

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I would like to see a new ship design that would have the offbore tubes chase mounted and would carry up to 8 LACs and carry 8 tractored missile pods. How big of a ship would that have to be? Could it be stuffed in something the size of a BC?

How much of a nightmare would it be to see a squadron of 8 of these ships show up on your door step? There would be 64 LACs and the 8 BCs to make a formidable missile shield in defense and they would be able to throw a lot of missiles when attacking. Even one of these ships patrolling in an area would be a tough nut to crack.
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Re: Beating up Frontier Fleet, mercilessly
Post by JeffEngel   » Fri Feb 27, 2015 6:55 pm

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StealthSeeker wrote:I would like to see a new ship design that would have the offbore tubes chase mounted and would carry up to 8 LACs and carry 8 tractored missile pods. How big of a ship would that have to be? Could it be stuffed in something the size of a BC?

How much of a nightmare would it be to see a squadron of 8 of these ships show up on your door step? There would be 64 LACs and the 8 BCs to make a formidable missile shield in defense and they would be able to throw a lot of missiles when attacking. Even one of these ships patrolling in an area would be a tough nut to crack.

It's hard to build a CLAC that is both good at it and not very large. You _may_ be able to get grossly inefficient more-or-less internal storage of 8 LAC's in a BC-sized hull that lost nearly all armor and internal compartmentalization to get that capability. At that point though, I'd think you may want to change your mind about the project or take a different tack.

If you want to go for LAC carriage that skimps on the quality without being quite so bad on the carrier, carrying them externally may be worth a try. That BC sized hull may be able to limpet them to the sides, a bit like a whole bunch of Keyhole platforms, for a similar scale. Picture three or four LAC's in a row down each flank; or perhaps a pair top and bottom, front and back, on either side to try to keep the center of the broadside clear.

Fitting in effective personnel access would be not too hard. (Speaking here from a new design standpoint; I shudder to consider it on an existing warship - including, yes, an SLN prize.) Fitting in missile and other supply access would be a lot harder; you'd probably just give up and freight that out a cargo hatch on the top or bottom with the wedge down. It's much of the skimping on carrier-role quality. And you'd be sacrificing at least the use of broadside weapons, sensors, and active defenses with the LAC's attached. The designers wouldn't have perfect freedom to arrange those and the LAC attachment points, either, but that's probably livable.

Still though, you wouldn't have a proper BC's firepower even with the brood away. There's only so much that the hammerheads will hold. The Rolands do well that way, but their ammunition is limited. A BC sized hull and its larger hammerheads would do better, but would not likely scale up in effect at the same rate as it scales up in tonnage, cost, yard time, yard capacity used, crew commitment, and ongoing costs.

I suspect you'd do better with a fleet train freighter with some LAC provisions (LAC module, LAC's in cargo bay, and/or LAC's attached) and a heavy cruiser than with a single larger hybrid platform.
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Re: Beating up Frontier Fleet, mercilessly
Post by SWM   » Fri Feb 27, 2015 6:56 pm

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StealthSeeker wrote:I would like to see a new ship design that would have the offbore tubes chase mounted and would carry up to 8 LACs and carry 8 tractored missile pods. How big of a ship would that have to be? Could it be stuffed in something the size of a BC?

How much of a nightmare would it be to see a squadron of 8 of these ships show up on your door step? There would be 64 LACs and the 8 BCs to make a formidable missile shield in defense and they would be able to throw a lot of missiles when attacking. Even one of these ships patrolling in an area would be a tough nut to crack.

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Re: Beating up Frontier Fleet, mercilessly
Post by wastedfly   » Fri Feb 27, 2015 7:05 pm

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I am beginning to wonder if anyone can actually type on this site anymore.

SL FF logistics centers do not magically move. Take out FF logistics centers and 75% of FF vanishes. This by anyone definition is complete destruction. Each logistics center controls approximately 20-25 worlds or 4 or 5 per 100 protectorates. We know there are only 24 major building sites in the SL core proper and another handful of logistic centers.

SL 1800 worlds at roughly 200LY radius = average distance between planets is ~24LY. This number is high. The distance is actually lower than this as that includes the protectorates in RFC's "map" and we do not know how many protectorates there are.

24Ly is traveled by warship in approximately 3 days.

Add one day to arrive, say hi, attack, and leave to next destination. Each "hop" is 4 days.

If there are 2000 protectorates(I think this is high), that would therefore equate to approximately 100 logistics centers on a 20 planet per FF logistics node basis. The cube root of 20 is less than 3. For kicks and giggles, lets call it 3 even though 3 would be 27.

So, travel days not equal 3*3 = 9 + 1 day for "show and tell".

10 days * 100 "apocalypse viewings" equates to 1000 ship task force days.

Each task force is only needed to be maybe BC squadron level. So, lets leave each squadron at CA/BC level. Lets be generous and double the number of squadrons required per task force. 16 ships. That way, FF cannot just see GA coming across the hyper limit and run for it to fight another day.

Lets set the minimum time to eliminate all FF nodal logistics points at 100 days from initiation of operations. (Simultaneous attacking) Have wormhole network so add another ~2 weeks to get into position.

Since we just calculated 10 days per FF nodal elimination, and we have 100 days to complete FF destruction, this equates to 100/10 = 10 "task forces" required to destroy FF.

For all those who cannot be bothered to do simple math 10 "task forces" * 16 ships/task force is a measly 160 ships.

FRONTIER FLEET could be 100% eliminated with SAG-C's alone without any other ship support.
Frontier fleet as a credible threat is not worth mentioning. Now BF with its missile spongnes...(SD/BC)

So, to take out those fleet repair bases where there is a higher probability of missile sponges being present for the 30 odd build centers in the SL core, would require maybe another 3 task forces composed of SD's. Lets double number in the task forces compared to light. Hmm 3*16 or so SD's, is a whopping ~100 or so out of a total of hundreds. BF missile sponges are hardly a credible threat. Any BF/FF captain with 2 cells to clink together in their vacuous noggins, will be surrendering before a shot is fired.
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Re: Beating up Frontier Fleet, mercilessly
Post by kzt   » Fri Feb 27, 2015 7:14 pm

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JeffEngel wrote:It's a great help, certainly. Someone with the figures at hand could tell better than I can how the Grendelsbane techs measure up by count to the lost Hephaestus and Vulcan ones. My guess is that they're only a modest fraction, and they will have to brush rust off skills and settle down in new working arrangements. Much better to have them home and working than not, by all means and in many ways, but the gap is a lot larger than they are going to be able to plug.

They were the iirc 50,000 people who had the least classified or otherwise critical skills. So there will be small children, spouses, accountants and other clerical staff in addition to the actual manufacturing techs. And none of the techs will be experts at building, installing, and tuning micro fusion, FTL, compensators, missiles or the other critical skills. They will be the ones who do the ship basic infrastructure parts. Very very useful, but not going to save the world.
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Re: Beating up Frontier Fleet, mercilessly
Post by SharkHunter   » Fri Feb 27, 2015 7:16 pm

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--snipping--
wastedfly wrote:FRONTIER FLEET could be 100% eliminated with SAG-C's alone without any other ship support. Frontier fleet as a credible threat is not worth mentioning. Now BF with its missile sponges...(SD/BC)
Bad idea. Let's say you take out all of Frontier Fleet. Now the GA has to police ALL of those worlds against pirates, Warnecke's or... the MAlign -- who wants nothing more than for the GA to take the Solarian League apart at the seams so that the Renaissance Factor can ride to the rescue.

FF and BF are not the enemy. FF and BF ships following bad orders and attacking GA interests or supporting corrupt OFS sector governments etc. are the enemy. It's just fun to ponder what will happen when some of the FF ships come sailing over the hyper wall to follow Kingsford's bad plan and run into anything from the Haven Sector that can hit back from long range or as a surprise, like LACs, etc.

To your point though, say Sector Governor ZeStupido next to the former Madras sector decides it's a good idea for all of the FF ships in his sector to go a'raiding. I'd presume that the next order of business for the GA would be to replace said idiot in short order after taking all of his ships and yards away. You don't even have to blow them up if they drop wedges and surrender, just put them under non-corrupt and agreeable management, and tell the freedom loving business interests in the sector that "you can now trade with us at/though wormhole X", no onerous taxes required.
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