Beating up Frontier Fleet, mercilessly

Woke up in a bad mood apparently. AKA let's suggest some tactics to "smack me some Sollies"... here's mine:

Okay, so Kingsford's pet strategy goes into effect and in pops a double squadron of SLN BC's to pounce on that nice juicy Manticoran Convoy in the Talbott or Meyers area of operations or some N-space, relatively undefended star system). Poor merchies only have a single Sag-C to do the Edward Saganami/Captain Zilwicki (post-humous PMV's) bit...


Well, that plus the third ship in the convoy is actually a stocked-to-the-deckheads missile pod collier or fast minelayer hull (dropping pods a la Solon)...

Well, far be it for me to interrupt a pleasant dream, but....

Please remember, while RFC has focused on the 'new stuff', there is still a limited number of "modern" warships in the SEM/Grayson inventory, and those ships are going to be called on to do a lot of different missions to render the SL and protect their systems (and those systems that ally with them).

Just for the count, here's what the SEM and Grayson had for 'modern' (i.e., can eat Sollies lunch as long as the missiles last). NOTE: This is just before the BOM, pre-Python Lump, and pre-Oyster Bay so the numbers may have increased--but no more of these classes (or new classes) for at least several years.

SEM:
DD-Wolfhound (19), Roland (46 and building)
CL-Avalon (196 and building), Kamerling (48)
CA-SAG C (149)
BC-Agamemmon (P) (85 and building), Nike (12 and building)
SD(P)-Medusa (63), and Invictus (53 and building)

Grayson:
DD-Paul (17 and building)
CL-Disciple (52 and building)
CA-Burleson (17 and building)
BC-Courvosier(P) (40 and building)
SD(P)-Harrington (104) Harrington II (61 and building)

So in a way, we've been spoiled in that virtually all the new Nikes (Mike's orginal squadron and Oversteegen's) are in Talbott--and likely almost nowhere eles. And even if the number of Rolands were doubles in the python lump, that's still less than 100 ships.

And in a war against an 1800-world SL, they are going to be rather busy--and guarding convoys may be a mission to far.

So I can see those double squadrons of Sollie BC's ambushing a convoy, but it's protection is only a SAG-A, a couple of Disciples, and two elderly Chanson-class DD's.

IMHO as always.

Could actually go either way, I'd think.

Grand Alliance knows their latest, most up to date classes don't even have to be in full fleets to ravage SLN formations, so they can send those out in singletons, or divisional strength and know its going to be functional.

Older ships would be withdrawn more into fleet formations, where they can be protected better, since those are the SEM's last remaining trained naval officers, until Sag.Island can start graduating new classes.

As any new construction completes, they'd start drawing those older, more manpower intensive classes back to Manticore, to change the crews into the new construction.


So the convoy's would probably have a division of Roland's, and maybe a possible singleton Sag-C with them, instead of an entire squadron of (insert cruiser flavour of choice).

Somtaaw wrote:Could actually go either way, I'd think.

Grand Alliance knows their latest, most up to date classes don't even have to be in full fleets to ravage SLN formations, so they can send those out in singletons, or divisional strength and know its going to be functional.

Older ships would be withdrawn more into fleet formations, where they can be protected better, since those are the SEM's last remaining trained naval officers, until Sag.Island can start graduating new classes.

As any new construction completes, they'd start drawing those older, more manpower intensive classes back to Manticore, to change the crews into the new construction.


So the convoy's would probably have a division of Roland's, and maybe a possible singleton Sag-C with them, instead of an entire squadron of (insert cruiser flavour of choice).

My Underline & Bold

The problem is not SI graduating new classes, it's having ships to assign the graduates to.

George J. Smith wrote:My Underline & Bold

The problem is not SI graduating new classes, it's having ships to assign the graduates to.

Bit of both really, after OB, Manticore lost not only its manufacturing capabilities, both organic and mechanical, it also lost a substanial number of sailors who were aboard the stations. And Manticore already had the issue of having to try balancing population in production, versus population in uniform.

Excluding the yard dog and egghead losses, the naval officers who would have been on Hephaestus, Vulcan, and whatever the other station was again, would be somewhere in the neighbourhood of 500,000 or so. The only way to get new tactical officers, engineers, and such is graduating more midshipmen and women.

I understand your point, but Manticore's last real trained officers would come from their older (manpower heavy) construction, supported by newly graduated middies.

Somtaaw wrote:Bit of both really, after OB, Manticore lost not only its manufacturing capabilities, both organic and mechanical, it also lost a substanial number of sailors who were aboard the stations. And Manticore already had the issue of having to try balancing population in production, versus population in uniform.

Excluding the yard dog and egghead losses, the naval officers who would have been on Hephaestus, Vulcan, and whatever the other station was again, would be somewhere in the neighbourhood of 500,000 or so. The only way to get new tactical officers, engineers, and such is graduating more midshipmen and women.

I understand your point, but Manticore's last real trained officers would come from their older (manpower heavy) construction, supported by newly graduated middies.

Well, yes. But trained sailors, navigators, engineers, etc are always mostly with the fleet.

And unlike the shipyards, and other station-side industries, the training commands were almost exclusively planetside. So there should have been no real disruption to Saganami Island's classes or faculty from Oyster Bay. (Which is what made your phrasing seem a little odd to me)


All you have is always all you have until you graduate more (or recall retirees or people on half-pay); but you'll be graduation more on your normal schedule. So you'll probably shortly have a glut of midshipmen needing first cruises.

Somtaaw wrote:

George J. Smith wrote:My Underline & Bold

The problem is not SI graduating new classes, it's having ships to assign the graduates to.

Bit of both really, after OB, Manticore lost not only its manufacturing capabilities, both organic and mechanical, it also lost a substanial number of sailors who were aboard the stations. And Manticore already had the issue of having to try balancing population in production, versus population in uniform.

Excluding the yard dog and egghead losses, the naval officers who would have been on Hephaestus, Vulcan, and whatever the other station was again, would be somewhere in the neighbourhood of 500,000 or so. The only way to get new tactical officers, engineers, and such is graduating more midshipmen and women.

I understand your point, but Manticore's last real trained officers would come from their older (manpower heavy) construction, supported by newly graduated middies.

Other station was Weyland, but that station was mostly and luckily evaluated.

That said, the RMMC just withdrew a buttload of freighters from Solarian space, and I'd imagine that a helluva bunch of those are managed by former RMN officers, likely at the lieutenant commander (or higher) ranks, and very well trained in military discipline, etc. Methinks the Crusher is about to get a whole slew of angry slightly older officers ready to wade back in and do battle.

AKA take the MAD/WMD weapons out of the picture what would have happened after WWII say Korean War era if for whatever reason the Soviet Union & China had together and had somehow got pissy and managed to clobber San Diego or Norfolk, killing most of the civilians in the area, or the Baltic fleet managed to take out Portsmouth. [granted, the WMD's woulda been used...]

You don't think a whole lot of sub- and cruiser- commanders wouldn't re-enlist to go do damage as soon as ships were ready and crewed?

It is reasonable to suppose that a lot of the graduating classes, returning merchant marine officers and crews, and engineering staff aboard existing ships, will get sucked off into either directly replenishing the manufacturing staff, or into the jobs the people doing that replenishing are coming from (add steps as necessary).

A critical, particular portion of the national workforce up and died there. Manticore isn't going to be able to replenish that portion just by taking survivors with the very same skill sets and have them go to work training up high school graduates to fill in the rest, not in the time frame they need. "Neighboring" professionals are going to get pulled in in a large series of career shifts, with a whole lot of on the job training.

I don't think it's going to be as if a Saganami Island class or two just vanished from shipside duties - it won't be that direct or that simple. But there will be an indirect dent on crewing ships from people who have to be somewhere else more urgently for once.

Hutch wrote:Well, far be it for me to interrupt a pleasant dream, but....

Please remember, while RFC has focused on the 'new stuff', there is still a limited number of "modern" warships in the SEM/Grayson inventory, and those ships are going to be called on to do a lot of different missions to render the SL and protect their systems (and those systems that ally with them).

Just for the count, here's what the SEM and Grayson had for 'modern' (i.e., can eat Sollies lunch as long as the missiles last). NOTE: This is just before the BOM, pre-Python Lump, and pre-Oyster Bay so the numbers may have increased--but no more of these classes (or new classes) for at least several years.

SEM:
DD-Wolfhound (19), Roland (46 and building)
CL-Avalon (196 and building), Kamerling (48)
CA-SAG C (149)
BC-Agamemmon (P) (85 and building), Nike (12 and building)
SD(P)-Medusa (63), and Invictus (53 and building)

Grayson:
DD-Paul (17 and building)
CL-Disciple (52 and building)
CA-Burleson (17 and building)
BC-Courvosier(P) (40 and building)
SD(P)-Harrington (104) Harrington II (61 and building)

So in a way, we've been spoiled in that virtually all the new Nikes (Mike's orginal squadron and Oversteegen's) are in Talbott--and likely almost nowhere eles. And even if the number of Rolands were doubles in the python lump, that's still less than 100 ships.

And in a war against an 1800-world SL, they are going to be rather busy--and guarding convoys may be a mission to far.

So I can see those double squadrons of Sollie BC's ambushing a convoy, but it's protection is only a SAG-A, a couple of Disciples, and two elderly Chanson-class DD's.

IMHO as always.

The ships with only extended range single drive missiles rather than DDM's are only modern by comparison with those without even that much missile range advantage. I cringe at the proportion there that are Avalon CL's.

Even worse though, for commerce raiding, to the extent that the SLN can generate interceptions in hyper, missile ranges won't matter so much since detection range is so limited. And if they manage it in a grav wave, it's all about the energy weapons anyway.

The real comforts in that case are just that interceptions in hyper are so hard to generate, that the RMN (and associated navies) have so much more practice with commerce protection and raiding, and that they are likely to be raiding commerce for a relatively short period between arriving in an area for it and their nation falling to bits behind them. Oh, and whatever commerce is going through the wormhole network isn't even in hyper for it. (Still, a lot of the wormhole network relies on "short" moves in hyper between wormholes, so there's a natural place to put raiders.)

Hopefully Admiral Sarnow (among many others) has had some time to spend thinking more on commerce protection routines.

Hutch wrote:Well, far be it for me to interrupt a pleasant dream, but....

Please remember, while RFC has focused on the 'new stuff', there is still a limited number of "modern" warships in the SEM/Grayson inventory, and those ships are going to be called on to do a lot of different missions to render the SL and protect their systems (and those systems that ally with them).

Just for the count, here's what the SEM and Grayson had for 'modern' (i.e., can eat Sollies lunch as long as the missiles last). NOTE: This is just before the BOM, pre-Python Lump, and pre-Oyster Bay so the numbers may have increased--but no more of these classes (or new classes) for at least several years.


SEM:
DD-Wolfhound (19), Roland (46 and building)
CL-Avalon (196 and building), Kamerling (48)
CA-SAG C (149)
BC-Agamemmon (P) (85 and building), Nike (12 and building)
SD(P)-Medusa (63), and Invictus (53 and building)

Grayson:
DD-Paul (17 and building)
CL-Disciple (52 and building)
CA-Burleson (17 and building)
BC-Courvosier(P) (40 and building)
SD(P)-Harrington (104) Harrington II (61 and building)

So in a way, we've been spoiled in that virtually all the new Nikes (Mike's orginal squadron and Oversteegen's) are in Talbott--and likely almost nowhere eles. And even if the number of Rolands were doubles in the python lump, that's still less than 100 ships.

And in a war against an 1800-world SL, they are going to be rather busy--and guarding convoys may be a mission to far.

So I can see those double squadrons of Sollie BC's ambushing a convoy, but it's protection is only a SAG-A, a couple of Disciples, and two elderly Chanson-class DD's.

IMHO as always.

Hutch, to be fair, if you are going to include ships armed with the LERM (Wolfhound, Avalon, Kamerling), you should also mention the ERM ships - Saganami B(84) and Reliant Flight III-IV (73), that can also beat the snot of anything conventional below the wall. Even up against Cataphract armed opponents, they have superior firecontrol and bow wall technology (amongst all the other goodies) that would allow them to outgun any BC in a 1:1 broadside dual.