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Gravitic antitelephone?

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Gravitic antitelephone?
Post by Belial666   » Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:48 pm

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For fun, has anyone applied special relativity to Honorverse FTL communications yet? Specifically, time dilation - which we know is a factor in the setting.

For example, how would this hypothetical situation play out?

Imagine that Alice and Bob are aboard spaceships moving inertially with a relative speed of 0.8c. At some point they pass right next to each other, and Alice defines the position and time of their passing to be at position x = 0, time t = 0 in her frame, while Bob defines it to be at position x' = 0 and time t' = 0 in his frame. In Alice's frame she remains at rest at position x = 0, while Bob is moving in the positive x direction at 0.8c; in Bob's frame he remains at rest at position x' = 0, and Alice is moving in the negative x' direction at 0.8c. Each one also has a tachyon transmitter aboard their ship, which sends out signals that move at 2.4c in the ship's own frame.

When Alice's clock shows that 300 days have elapsed since she passed next to Bob (t = 300 days in her frame), she uses the tachyon transmitter to send a message to Bob, saying "Ugh, I just ate some bad shrimp". At t = 450 days in Alice's frame, she calculates that since the tachyon signal has been traveling away from her at 2.4c for 150 days, it should now be at position x = (2.4)*(150) = 360 light-days in her frame, and since Bob has been traveling away from her at 0.8c for 450 days, he should now be at position x = (0.8)*(450) = 360 light-days in her frame as well, meaning that this is the moment the signal catches up with Bob. So, in her frame Bob receives Alice's message at x = 360, t = 450. Due to the effects of time dilation, in her frame Bob is aging more slowly than she is by a factor of \frac{1}{ \gamma} = \sqrt{1 - { (v/c)^2}}, in this case 0.6, so Bob's clock only shows that 0.6*450 = 270 days have elapsed when he receives the message, meaning that in his frame he receives it at x' = 0, t' = 270.

When Bob receives Alice's message, he immediately uses his own tachyon transmitter to send a message back to Alice saying "Don't eat the shrimp!" 135 days later in his frame, at t' = 270 + 135 = 405, he calculates that since the tachyon signal has been traveling away from him at 2.4c in the -x' direction for 135 days, it should now be at position x' = -(2.4)*(135) = -324 light-days in his frame, and since Alice has been traveling at 0.8c in the -x direction for 405 days, she should now be at position x' = -(0.8)*(405) = -324 light-days as well. So, in his frame Alice receives his reply at x' = -324, t' = 405. Time dilation for inertial observers is symmetrical, so in Bob's frame Alice is aging more slowly than he is, by the same factor of 0.6, so Alice's clock should only show that 0.6*405 = 243 days have elapsed when she receives his reply. This means that she receives a message from Bob saying "Don't eat the shrimp!" only 243 days after she passed Bob, while she wasn't supposed to send the message saying "Ugh, I just ate some bad shrimp" until 300 days elapsed since she passed Bob, so Bob's reply constitutes a warning about her own future.
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Re: Gravitic antitelephone?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:19 am

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Belial666 wrote:For fun, has anyone applied special relativity to Honorverse FTL communications yet? Specifically, time dilation - which we know is a factor in the setting.

For example, how would this hypothetical situation play out?
Well the real answer is that the Honorverse basically ignores any bits of relativity that it doesn't like.

Though a technical cop-out would be that most FTL signals are only detectable by shipboard sensors at about 20 light minutes or less. So even if you set up that 0.8c flyby both ships would zip out of communication range quickly enough that I don't think you could really try to test this particular paradox.
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Re: Gravitic antitelephone?
Post by Belial666   » Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:52 am

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The results persist even if you change light-days to light-minutes or even light-seconds.

Also, they're due to the effects relativity has to one's personal frame of reference and not the FTL signals themselves and we already know there's time dilation for high enough speeds.




And that's before we even get into the issue of simultaneity and order of events which can be wildly different from different frames of reference too.
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Re: Gravitic antitelephone?
Post by cthia   » Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:14 am

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I could cheat with two words and/or three ways. ;)

1. Lorentz transformation.

2. My 13-yr-old niece, Tierney Jenkins, who offered me her Volume 22. And an "Oh please. You've got to be kidding." :roll:

3. "----------------------------------------"

****** *

These type discussions would be loads of fun, and worth the effort if mathematical symbols and equations displayed properly. MathML or HTML5. A limitation that I've run into myself, here on the forum, on several occasions.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Gravitic antitelephone?
Post by SWM   » Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:48 am

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The answer is that it is quite well known in physics that tachyonic communication implies communication backwards in time. There are numerous scientific papers on the subject. Similarly, travel faster than the speed of light implies time travel. Even the kind of hyperspace travel that is described in the books can be set up in such a way that time travel results if analyzed properly.

This, of course, has nothing to do with the Honorverse. Honorverse physics breaks real physics in numerous ways.
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Re: Gravitic antitelephone?
Post by cthia   » Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:11 am

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SWM wrote:The answer is that it is quite well known in physics that tachyonic communication implies communication backwards in time. There are numerous scientific papers on the subject. Similarly, travel faster than the speed of light implies time travel. Even the kind of hyperspace travel that is described in the books can be set up in such a way that time travel results if analyzed properly.

This, of course, has nothing to do with the Honorverse. Honorverse physics breaks real physics in numerous ways.

Except in certain situations where it doesn't; when it actually results in a halting of time. See Schwarzschild radius of a singularity.

****** *

This is known as Tolman's paradox. And apparently, it is used as a teaching vehicle for first year students of Theoretical Physics.

My niece's professor gave this as a 2-hr in class assignment. (which explains her "You've got to be kidding," sentiment.) He wants to publish my niece's work. By the way, she's taking college level courses while in High School, at 13.

This particular problem is well known to those in the Theoretical Physics discipline. But a formal breakdown can be found at several places on the net. Even wikipedia. Which is why I said, I'd be cheating. Besides, simple Lorentz transformations will catch you much joy. Or a loooooooooong session with my niece.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tachyonic_antitelephone

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Gravitic antitelephone?
Post by Kizarvexis   » Fri Feb 27, 2015 11:10 am

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As I understand it, which is fuzzy at best when you follow the rabbit down the deep math hole, the situation above arises as there is no preferred frame of reference. Every reference frame is equal for participants in those particular frames of reference. What if hyperspace is the preferred frame of reference tying everything together, instead of every reference frame being equal? Would that change things?
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Re: Gravitic antitelephone?
Post by cthia   » Fri Feb 27, 2015 11:45 am

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Kizarvexis wrote:As I understand it, which is fuzzy at best when you follow the rabbit down the deep math hole, the situation above arises as there is no preferred frame of reference. Every reference frame is equal for participants in those particular frames of reference. What if hyperspace is the preferred frame of reference tying everything together, instead of every reference frame being equal? Would that change things?

If I'm understanding you correctly, it would impose a contradiction to the theory. See "superluminal reference frames" in that light.

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02080670

My niece did an entire treatise on the subject since her original assignment at the suggestion of her professor. Approximately 200 pages. She changes a few select parameters and frames of reference and made it even more interesting.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Gravitic antitelephone?
Post by Kizarvexis   » Fri Feb 27, 2015 11:56 am

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cthia wrote:
Kizarvexis wrote:As I understand it, which is fuzzy at best when you follow the rabbit down the deep math hole, the situation above arises as there is no preferred frame of reference. Every reference frame is equal for participants in those particular frames of reference. What if hyperspace is the preferred frame of reference tying everything together, instead of every reference frame being equal? Would that change things?

If I'm understanding you correctly, it would impose a contradiction to the theory. See "superluminal reference frames" in that light.

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02080670

My niece did an entire treatise on the subject since her original assignment at the suggestion of her professor. Approximately 200 pages. She changes a few select parameters and frames of reference and made it even more interesting.


Do you have a link that is free and in normal person language?
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Re: Gravitic antitelephone?
Post by SWM   » Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:54 pm

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cthia wrote:
SWM wrote:The answer is that it is quite well known in physics that tachyonic communication implies communication backwards in time. There are numerous scientific papers on the subject. Similarly, travel faster than the speed of light implies time travel. Even the kind of hyperspace travel that is described in the books can be set up in such a way that time travel results if analyzed properly.

This, of course, has nothing to do with the Honorverse. Honorverse physics breaks real physics in numerous ways.

Except in certain situations where it doesn't; when it actually results in a halting of time. See Schwarzschild radius of a singularity.

****** *

This is known as Tolman's paradox. And apparently, it is used as a teaching vehicle for first year students of Theoretical Physics.

My niece's professor gave this as a 2-hr in class assignment. (which explains her "You've got to be kidding," sentiment.) He wants to publish my niece's work. By the way, she's taking college level courses while in High School, at 13.

This particular problem is well known to those in the Theoretical Physics discipline. But a formal breakdown can be found at several places on the net. Even wikipedia. Which is why I said, I'd be cheating. Besides, simple Lorentz transformations will catch you much joy. Or a loooooooooong session with my niece.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tachyonic_antitelephone

A Schwartzchild singularity has nothing to do with traveling or communicating faster than light. It is unrelated to FTL.
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