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Why do pirates (privateers) not seem to carry any form of RD

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Re: Why do pirates (privateers) not seem to carry any form o
Post by Garth 2   » Sun Feb 22, 2015 6:32 am

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kzt wrote:
Garth 2 wrote:The supply network for RDs doesn't exist, as most contain advance (for the relevant navy) stealth features (and other bell and whistles) so they be more tightly controlled than contact nukes (after all nukes are used as part of the construction industry).

But getting a supply of anti-ship missiles is not hard? If you had to choose, which one would you more tightly control?

I would tightly control both, however were there's a market there's a way.
It comes down to access and the associated cost, RDs on a per unit cost must be higher than a nuke due to fore mentioned bells and whistles. I would also suspect that the number of RD manufacturing sites is a fraction of the missile ones
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Re: Why do pirates (privateers) not seem to carry any form o
Post by Mitchell, Esq.   » Sun Feb 22, 2015 8:54 am

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I get the impression manufacturing either isn't really that hard once you have the equipment in place, and that the Honorverse has sufficient technologically equipped planets with a native arms industry that have sufficiently compliant/corrupt authorities to permit/ignore the same of export grade weapons in exchange for something.

Hell, a criminal enterprise can get genuine Technodyne manufactured, SLN Export Approved missiles sold to the government of world X based on official end user certificates...then the weapons are expended in training, 'stockpiled' or deployed...and more are ordered to replace them.

Or maybe Technodyne just sells them to Mesa who permits an open arms market.

I find it hard to believe a pirate can dispose of a ship, but can't find arms & drones.

I think they don't use them because they are costly, and in many cases unneeded.

How many street thugs do you see today using night vision when breaking into houses- even though it is commercially available in sporting goods stores today?

You don't...
Last edited by Mitchell, Esq. on Sun Feb 22, 2015 9:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why do pirates (privateers) not seem to carry any form o
Post by JeffEngel   » Sun Feb 22, 2015 9:05 am

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Somtaaw wrote:Missile launchers are mass drivers, which at a very very simple level, simply "fling" something.

Think of the sport paintball, the paintball is a wedge-less camera, the marker is now a missile launcher, and players are ships. I don't need paintballs with scram-jet propulsion to get them to hit you at long range, I just need to adjust my aim for where you are moving towards and you walk into my rounds.

The same with a wedge-less camera, I point the ship and "fire" my camera, and simply wait until it gets near you. If it's made even half decent, it'd be low detection composites to defeat most radar (think the mine ambush in Hancock), no wedge and the two combined means a warship would probably not even realise you just threw camera's on a close approach.

Think of the "drone" I'm proposing more like... you probably have a cell phone, that has an inbuilt camera. You tape your phone with the camera sticking out to a cylinder, and then add some gyro's to give it some turning possibility. Add a small processing core, and some programming that allows it to orient your phone to aim at a specific target. Lastly add an antenna for long-range communication. Congratulations, you now have a pirate "Long Range Warship Detection Probe", for the low low cost of what, $500?

Obviously it would be slightly better constructed, but that's more or less all thats needed to check a potential prize for hammerheads, hours before you get nearby. The longest bit of construction is doing the programming for aligning your camera, and the communication protocols so the camera sends the picture (or live camera stream, like our Mars probes send back to Earth) back to the pirate ship.


I don't think anyone disputes that the "recon bullet" wouldn't be cheap. The recon bullet would not reliably get to a target.

Consider an interception. Freighter has a bunch of base velocity plus 200g acceleration - used as much as possible to frustrate interception by the pirate. Pirate has a bunch of base velocity (or not), which matches the freighter's only to the extent the pirate has done a very, very good job of setting this up or is very, very lucky, plus 500g or so of acceleration.

Recon bullet has exactly the pirate's base velocity when fired, plus one initial chunk from the mass driver and no further acceleration whatever.

Chances are, the recon bullet is just left behind. If the freighter is keeping its wedge toward the pirate, the wedge will remain toward the recon bullet for a long time.

Eventually the bearings will change enough - perhaps especially if the pirate fires the recon bullet away from the freighter - that the RB will get a wedge-avoiding peek at the freighter. But by that time, you start getting odds favoring the interception happening already, or at least that (given additional speed of light delays too for freighter to optical sensor, RB to pirate) it's still too late for the pirate if it is a warship.

Sometimes, something like this may work. And if anyone builds it - it's likely to be a niche thing, and putting it together in your garage such that it can handle firing out the mass driver and the other hazards of the use isn't too promising - pirates and warships even may have a use for a small supply of them. But they're not going to fix the problem.
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Re: Why do pirates (privateers) not seem to carry any form o
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sun Feb 22, 2015 9:23 am

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JeffEngel wrote:
Somtaaw wrote:Missile launchers are mass drivers, which at a very very simple level, simply "fling" something.

Think of the sport paintball, the paintball is a wedge-less camera, the marker is now a missile launcher, and players are ships. I don't need paintballs with scram-jet propulsion to get them to hit you at long range, I just need to adjust my aim for where you are moving towards and you walk into my rounds.

The same with a wedge-less camera, I point the ship and "fire" my camera, and simply wait until it gets near you. If it's made even half decent, it'd be low detection composites to defeat most radar (think the mine ambush in Hancock), no wedge and the two combined means a warship would probably not even realise you just threw camera's on a close approach.

Think of the "drone" I'm proposing more like... you probably have a cell phone, that has an inbuilt camera. You tape your phone with the camera sticking out to a cylinder, and then add some gyro's to give it some turning possibility. Add a small processing core, and some programming that allows it to orient your phone to aim at a specific target. Lastly add an antenna for long-range communication. Congratulations, you now have a pirate "Long Range Warship Detection Probe", for the low low cost of what, $500?

Obviously it would be slightly better constructed, but that's more or less all thats needed to check a potential prize for hammerheads, hours before you get nearby. The longest bit of construction is doing the programming for aligning your camera, and the communication protocols so the camera sends the picture (or live camera stream, like our Mars probes send back to Earth) back to the pirate ship.


I don't think anyone disputes that the "recon bullet" wouldn't be cheap. The recon bullet would not reliably get to a target.

Consider an interception. Freighter has a bunch of base velocity plus 200g acceleration - used as much as possible to frustrate interception by the pirate. Pirate has a bunch of base velocity (or not), which matches the freighter's only to the extent the pirate has done a very, very good job of setting this up or is very, very lucky, plus 500g or so of acceleration.

Recon bullet has exactly the pirate's base velocity when fired, plus one initial chunk from the mass driver and no further acceleration whatever.

Chances are, the recon bullet is just left behind. If the freighter is keeping its wedge toward the pirate, the wedge will remain toward the recon bullet for a long time.

Eventually the bearings will change enough - perhaps especially if the pirate fires the recon bullet away from the freighter - that the RB will get a wedge-avoiding peek at the freighter. But by that time, you start getting odds favoring the interception happening already, or at least that (given additional speed of light delays too for freighter to optical sensor, RB to pirate) it's still too late for the pirate if it is a warship.

Sometimes, something like this may work. And if anyone builds it - it's likely to be a niche thing, and putting it together in your garage such that it can handle firing out the mass driver and the other hazards of the use isn't too promising - pirates and warships even may have a use for a small supply of them. But they're not going to fix the problem.
Add to this that you want the results from the Recon Bullet before you enter powered missile range of the target; or more precisely before you reach the point where you can't avoid entering powered missile range.

If you're worried a contact might be a warship, it's not enough to stay out of energy range (400,000 km or so), you need to avoid the missile envelope (6-7 million km) against a ship that probably has lose to your own acceleration.

That's a long, slow, ballistic flight. And acceleration your ship to give the recon bullet a higher base velocity just forces you to launch raven earlier because it would now take longer to overcome your base vector towards the target should it prove to be a warship.

(And as for evading a modern RMN ship with LERMs or Mk16s and way more acceleration than you; not gonna happen)
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Re: Why do pirates (privateers) not seem to carry any form o
Post by thinkstoomuch   » Sun Feb 22, 2015 9:51 am

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JeffEngel wrote:...snip...

Consider an interception. Freighter has a bunch of base velocity plus 200g acceleration - used as much as possible to frustrate interception by the pirate. Pirate has a bunch of base velocity (or not), which matches the freighter's only to the extent the pirate has done a very, very good job of setting this up or is very, very lucky, plus 500g or so of acceleration.

...snip...


I few numbers to expand.

Merchant translates and has a base velocity of 500 m/sec.

Pirate laying in wait base velocity of zero. They are hanging out waiting. any velocity they have is most likely to be in the wrong direction. A lot more goes into this but ...

So to start with the camera will have to start at a greater velocity than 500 m/s.

If the merchant has only 150g's of accel then it will be adding 1,470 m/s.

If the pirate is say 1 light minute away away from the merchant that distance is 18,000,000 km. To get just that distance in say 5 minutes. The camera has to have been launched at 60,000 m/s.

During that 5 minutes the freighter adds 441,000 m/s. It also travels another 66,150,000 m. Another 11 seconds of flight for the camera.

Except now the merchant is traveling ~7 times faster than the camera.

Next we have figure what it takes to launch said camera.

Stop and think how much accel that camera is going to have to withstand. If you want it to accel to 60,000 m/s in say 1 second that amounts to 6,000 g's. during which time it will travel 29,400 m. Well the ship isn't that long. So maybe a 0.1 sec. Now the accel has to be 60,000 g's. And it only travels 300 meters. Which is doable with handwavum physics and the launch tube extending to the sidewall.

Just a few numbers to consider. To lazy to go through all the math for the interception problem. I think 1 light minute is a low detection range. Space is big. And as demonstrated 60,000 m/s is way to slow to actually get the camera there in time.

Have fun,
T2M
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Re: Why do pirates (privateers) not seem to carry any form o
Post by JeffEngel   » Sun Feb 22, 2015 10:07 am

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You know, if you can't put recon bullets where you need them, or maintain an Argus net for piracy, operating in groups of two or more more often would get you more bearings on the target, that move, and that have all the sensors you can afford on a platform you're already committed to keeping.

Given that you only need to overcome unarmed, undefended freighters, individual members of the pack can still be as small as you like so long as they are hyper-capable, armed, and have a boat bay and prize crews (or at least wardens for captured crews). So decommissioned old-style frigates would do, as would just about any fleet auxiliary.

The ones who may not be able to make an interception can still help close the trap and hopefully get looks at the target without a wedge in the way.

It does mean splitting the take with a whole other ship, when each is capable of doing almost as much piracy (at a higher risk) alone as the whole pair or larger group is. So you'd need an unusually thoughtful, well-organized gang for it.
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Re: Why do pirates (privateers) not seem to carry any form o
Post by SWM   » Sun Feb 22, 2015 2:01 pm

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So the original question here is why pirates don't use RDs. I think this is related to a question that came up in an earlier thread--why don't early books show more people using RDs?

I believe there are no instances of RDs being used in a tactical situation to get close observation of enemy ships until Manticore introduces the Ghost Rider project. There are some instances of RDs being used for monitoring the edges of a system, but no instances of close-up monitoring by RDs. There are two possible answers: previous technology was not adequate for close-in tactical drones, or people just didn't think of it.

In either case, that answers why we have never seen pirates do it, either. None of those pirates had access to Manticoran technology.

This leaves open the possibility that future pirates may start using stealthed recon drones. But it might be too expensive for them.
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Re: Why do pirates (privateers) not seem to carry any form o
Post by JeffEngel   » Sun Feb 22, 2015 3:10 pm

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SWM wrote:So the original question here is why pirates don't use RDs. I think this is related to a question that came up in an earlier thread--why don't early books show more people using RDs?

I believe there are no instances of RDs being used in a tactical situation to get close observation of enemy ships until Manticore introduces the Ghost Rider project. There are some instances of RDs being used for monitoring the edges of a system, but no instances of close-up monitoring by RDs. There are two possible answers: previous technology was not adequate for close-in tactical drones, or people just didn't think of it.

In either case, that answers why we have never seen pirates do it, either. None of those pirates had access to Manticoran technology.

This leaves open the possibility that future pirates may start using stealthed recon drones. But it might be too expensive for them.

Indeed.

The early RD use was "pre-tactical" - for the period in between a hostile system incursion being detected, and shots firing. With single drive missiles - without either stupendous powered range or the ability to go powered/ballistic/powered - there was a whole lot of time there to make out what that incursion really was and intercept or evade. RD's helped out make those decisions; evading RD's helped make that decision harder for the enemy. Since then, combat starts so much sooner, and finding out (e.g.) if that's an SD, SD(P), or CLAC, or how many pods if any the hostiles are carrying becomes so much more important.

Without FTL comms, the RD was just a light speed information sensor node that may be closer to the enemy: you didn't get the information faster in any case, you just got information from a closer vantage point and a different bearing. That latter is exactly what a canny pirate could really use to avoid the warship lightning strike, but it'd be less likely less critical for the warships whose operations support the manufacture of RD's in the first place.
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Re: Why do pirates (privateers) not seem to carry any form o
Post by Lord Skimper   » Sun Feb 22, 2015 5:45 pm

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we know pirates have access to missiles. even reloads.

we know a missile is very fast, even a pirate missile.

we know a missile has a sensor head and these sensors are much better than our current real tech 2015

a pirate could have a simple recon drone.

they don't because that doesn't make good reading.

however we also know that the Q ship AMC defeats the simple RD as it doesn't have hammer heads. which might have been why it was used.

hence skilled pirates do have recon drones and don't attack military ships. or Caravan class Freighters.

bad pirates who tend to attack anything that moves tend to get killed a lot.

most pirates have military ships so attacking a military ship isn't an automatic failure, until recently.

attacking a havok DD with a Silesian CA meant you had a fight 20 years ago. even 10 years ago. attacking a Roland now is game over.

i do find it odd that id a single Roland and a single CLAC with 100+ Shrike B were /are deployed to each Silesian system. suddenly you have no more pirates. the Roland to chase fleeing pirates, or jump out to meet in coming hyper signals. Shrike B to sit in the hyper transport lanes and wait for Pirates, inside the limit.

obviously more hyper capable ships for large more popular systems. places where pirates don't want to go as pirates.

with current mk16 range a roland can control any system by itself against any things from 20 years ago. add in 100 shrike and the system is secure.
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Re: Why do pirates (privateers) not seem to carry any form o
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sun Feb 22, 2015 6:16 pm

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SWM wrote:So the original question here is why pirates don't use RDs. I think this is related to a question that came up in an earlier thread--why don't early books show more people using RDs?

I believe there are no instances of RDs being used in a tactical situation to get close observation of enemy ships until Manticore introduces the Ghost Rider project. There are some instances of RDs being used for monitoring the edges of a system, but no instances of close-up monitoring by RDs. There are two possible answers: previous technology was not adequate for close-in tactical drones, or people just didn't think of it.

In either case, that answers why we have never seen pirates do it, either. None of those pirates had access to Manticoran technology.

This leaves open the possibility that future pirates may start using stealthed recon drones. But it might be too expensive for them.

I can't remember a actual combat use of recon drones for close observation - but they got used that way in one the training skirmishes between Honor's GSN SD command and the visiting RMN wallers. (IIRC the RMN Admiral saw through the GSN deception by slipping a powered down recon drone through their formation -- close enough to pierce their ECM tricks)

I was left with the impression that (pre-ghost rider) RD's weren't very stealthy under power and didn't have much endurance. So you might launch a spread of them to check your route for lurking ambushes; but there wasn't much point in sending one to look at a formation because usually if the RD maneuvered enough to intercept the formation it'd get spotted and swatted out of the sky.


Now, circling back to the original question in this thread, that doesn't preclude a pirate from using them. After all the fact that his RD got blown away is more than enough evidence that the target has teeth and prudence dictates it's time to run away. :D
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