The SSK without Nynian and Sandaria (SPOILERS)

n7axw wrote:Hi PeterZ,

Hector was into empire building, pure and simple. He was aware of the suspicion of the out islands, was very careful not to behave in such a way as to encourage it toward Corisande and then used it to focus Temple suspicion on Charis.

Hector's ambition was to rule the empire Cayleb ended up with. That was his primary focus even before he was offered Temple help in dealing with Charis.

Don

The textev makes it quite clear that some of the mistrust the CoGA and the Go4 had for Charis was fanned by Hektor and Nahrmahn. We also know from Irys' musings that Hektor paid off the church whenever he needed something that might have roused suspicion of any intendants, and to have the vicars assigned to Corisande solidly in his corner. He was also paranoid enough to plant his own spy (most likely spies) inside the Inquisition.

Haarahld refused to play that game, and the existence of the Royal College handed Nahrmahn and Hektor an easy target to brandish as proof of Charisian heresy. The Go4 mention that the stories and rumors they're hearing are quite likely exaggerated for political purposes, but Clyntahn wanted to squash any possibility of heresy like a bug, so they settled the fate of the planet during an amicable dinner.

They didn't realize at the time that things wouldn't turn out the way they'd expected, but that's just one of life's little ironies.

McGuiness wrote:

n7axw wrote:Hi PeterZ,

Hector was into empire building, pure and simple. He was aware of the suspicion of the out islands, was very careful not to behave in such a way as to encourage it toward Corisande and then used it to focus Temple suspicion on Charis.

Hector's ambition was to rule the empire Cayleb ended up with. That was his primary focus even before he was offered Temple help in dealing with Charis.

Don

The textev makes it quite clear that some of the mistrust the CoGA and the Go4 had for Charis was fanned by Hektor and Nahrmahn. We also know from Irys' musings that Hektor paid off the church whenever he needed something that might have roused suspicion of any intendants, and to have the vicars assigned to Corisande solidly in his corner. He was also paranoid enough to plant his own spy (most likely spies) inside the Inquisition.

Haarahld refused to play that game, and the existence of the Royal College handed Nahrmahn and Hektor an easy target to brandish as proof of Charisian heresy. The Go4 mention that the stories and rumors they're hearing are quite likely exaggerated for political purposes, but Clyntahn wanted to squash any possibility of heresy like a bug, so they settled the fate of the planet during an amicable dinner.

They didn't realize at the time that things wouldn't turn out the way they'd expected, but that's just one of life's little ironies.

Haraald didn't refuse to play so much as he realized it wouldn't matter if he played or not. The CoGA and an independent, prosperous Charis could not coexist. Other than that I would agree with your summation more or less.

Hektor was building an empire, sure. Why? Did he simply want to rule over more nations? Or did he want to increase his empire to ensure that his larger empire could better survive the hammer he saw coming? Text was not clear on this.

I think that Hektor was not so stupid as to totally miss the threat the CoGA represents to him and his people. He does care for them in his own way. Text was pretty clear on that. It isn't too far fetched to believe that protecting his people was a core driver of his ambition.

PeterZ wrote:Hektor was building an empire, sure. Why? Did he simply want to rule over more nations? Or did he want to increase his empire to ensure that his larger empire could better survive the hammer he saw coming? Text was not clear on this.

I don't recall anything from Hektor doubting his ability to keep large amounts of what he grabbed without the Church minding, but just how enthusiastically the Church got behind him was a surprise. Others (in the books, not just here) certainly thought that he thought he would be able to keep a lot of Charis' territory and trade.

And if he'd played the role of the Church's sole Out Island champion so well so far, it's plausible that he figured he could carry it out longer. If he "only" got out of it (for example) Silverlode and possession of the Howell Bay and Throat islands (in effect, to be Charis' warden), with Charis' trade being divided up among him, the Church, and everyone else about 1:1:1 - that's both a huge windfall and something a loyal son of the Church who led the humbling of arrogant Charis could reasonably believe the Church may let him have.

I think that Hektor was not so stupid as to totally miss the threat the CoGA represents to him and his people. He does care for them in his own way. Text was pretty clear on that. It isn't too far fetched to believe that protecting his people was a core driver of his ambition.

Ehhh - I think protecting his people was about invading other people before they had a chance to do the same; offering them something as much like the protection of law an autocrat can; and giving them the cover of demonstrated, emphasized orthodoxy in the eyes of that Church.

If there was evidence of a distant plan to double-cross the Church after uniting the Out Islands, I neither remember a hint of it nor suspect it. His spies in the Church would do him a lot more good giving him warning of Church suspicions of him and material to help stroke their fears and keep them satisfactorily bribed.

JeffEngel wrote:

PeterZ wrote:

I think that Hektor was not so stupid as to totally miss the threat the CoGA represents to him and his people. He does care for them in his own way. Text was pretty clear on that. It isn't too far fetched to believe that protecting his people was a core driver of his ambition.

Ehhh - I think protecting his people was about invading other people before they had a chance to do the same; offering them something as much like the protection of law an autocrat can; and giving them the cover of demonstrated, emphasized orthodoxy in the eyes of that Church.

If there was evidence of a distant plan to double-cross the Church after uniting the Out Islands, I neither remember a hint of it nor suspect it. His spies in the Church would do him a lot more good giving him warning of Church suspicions of him and material to help stroke their fears and keep them satisfactorily bribed.

Hektor hadn't been attacked by anyone. He wasn't attacked by Chisholm even after he assassinated King Silas. His ambition wasn't fueled by fear or even do onto others first. His ambition was driven by a desire to create something bigger and stronger than what he inherited. The specific reasons for that desire hasn't been explicitly stated. Care for his people isn't inconsistent with existing text.

We know from a conversation between Merlin and Cayleb that Hector ruled as an enlightened despot at home at the same time he pursued his foreign policy without thought of scruple abroad. In a sense he was a split personality that way.

In her ruminations, Irys admits to herself that it was Hector's ambitions that led him to be vulnerable to the G-4's bait, although whether or not he would have been a position to say no even if he had wanted to is doubtful.

Given human complexity, this certainly doesn't rule out Hector caring for the people of Corisande. Whether he ruled Corisande the way he did out of concern for his people or simply out of an enlightened understanding of how to feather his own nest, we'll never know. We do know that Irys believed that he cared for his people.

There is no textev to suggest that Hector ever thought the Temple was about to come down on him like a hammer. There is evidence that he was well aware of the Temple's suspicion and was determined to act in a manner that would redirect it away from him. But does he regard himself as threatened? I don't see it.

His driving ambition is his empire building. He had already had Zebediah and was determined to add to that. The offer of the Temple's help simply accelerated plans already afoot.

Don

PeterZ wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:Ehhh - I think protecting his people was about invading other people before they had a chance to do the same; offering them something as much like the protection of law an autocrat can; and giving them the cover of demonstrated, emphasized orthodoxy in the eyes of that Church.

If there was evidence of a distant plan to double-cross the Church after uniting the Out Islands, I neither remember a hint of it nor suspect it. His spies in the Church would do him a lot more good giving him warning of Church suspicions of him and material to help stroke their fears and keep them satisfactorily bribed.

Hektor hadn't been attacked by anyone. He wasn't attacked by Chisholm even after he assassinated King Silas. His ambition wasn't fueled by fear or even do onto others first. His ambition was driven by a desire to create something bigger and stronger than what he inherited. The specific reasons for that desire hasn't been explicitly stated. Care for his people isn't inconsistent with existing text.

I don't dispute that last. I do think that it'd be fishing out a speculative limb to suppose that the desire to create something bigger and stronger than he inherited was particularly about arming Corisande (or "Greater Corisande", if you will) against the future wrath of Zion. He's a hereditary monarch, a dynast. Thinking in dynastic terms, he wants his son, his family, to inherit a bigger, stronger power base than he had.

It's not particularly - if at all - about the mainland or the Church. Someone else would have to look it up, but I'm pretty confident he figured once that Charis losing to the Church in the end was inevitable. If he figured that was the case for Charis, with all of its advantages, after defeating five other navies, after making allies of two of them and being on the verge of defeating completely the largest of the island enemies... then there's no way he could have supposed that he could ever have made Corisande so powerful if things had worked out for him to handle a confrontation with the Church if it ever happened. He just bet that he'd've been able to keep that confrontation from ever happening as he had so far.

A stronger House Daikyn atop a larger, triumphant Corisande - pre-eminent among the Out Islands after the fall of overweening Charis, the staunch ally of the one true Church - that would be something that could stand against the sorts of threats and rivals Hektor could and would wrap his head around, like other Corisandian noble houses, Zebediah, or in the longer term Charis or Chisholm. He was a dynast, not a Corisandian patriot, so other dynastic possessions were threats or opportunities, and "his" nobles were just people who each see their children and grandchildren on his throne.

The Temple isn't something you take on, it's something you point at your enemies and work out a nice piece of the wreckage that remains of them.

JeffEngel wrote:Hektor hadn't been attacked by anyone. He wasn't attacked by Chisholm even after he assassinated King Silas. His ambition wasn't fueled by fear or even do onto others first. His ambition was driven by a desire to create something bigger and stronger than what he inherited. The specific reasons for that desire hasn't been explicitly stated. Care for his people isn't inconsistent with existing text.

I don't dispute that last. I do think that it'd be fishing out a speculative limb to suppose that the desire to create something bigger and stronger than he inherited was particularly about arming Corisande (or "Greater Corisande", if you will) against the future wrath of Zion. He's a hereditary monarch, a dynast. Thinking in dynastic terms, he wants his son, his family, to inherit a bigger, stronger power base than he had.

It's not particularly - if at all - about the mainland or the Church. Someone else would have to look it up, but I'm pretty confident he figured once that Charis losing to the Church in the end was inevitable. If he figured that was the case for Charis, with all of its advantages, after defeating five other navies, after making allies of two of them and being on the verge of defeating completely the largest of the island enemies... then there's no way he could have supposed that he could ever have made Corisande so powerful if things had worked out for him to handle a confrontation with the Church if it ever happened. He just bet that he'd've been able to keep that confrontation from ever happening as he had so far.

A stronger House Daikyn atop a larger, triumphant Corisande - pre-eminent among the Out Islands after the fall of overweening Charis, the staunch ally of the one true Church - that would be something that could stand against the sorts of threats and rivals Hektor could and would wrap his head around, like other Corisandian noble houses, Zebediah, or in the longer term Charis or Chisholm. He was a dynast, not a Corisandian patriot, so other dynastic possessions were threats or opportunities, and "his" nobles were just people who each see their children and grandchildren on his throne.

The Temple isn't something you take on, it's something you point at your enemies and work out a nice piece of the wreckage that remains of them.[/quote]

You misunderstand. Hektor had desire to stand against the CoGA. He wanted Corisande strong enough to be the CoGA's overlord of the outislands. I suspect his calculation was that that CoGA could use him more cheaply that doing so itself. So, yes, Hektor wanted to create a greater Corisande not to stand against the CoGA but to be the CoGA's surrogate.

He miscalculated in that Clyntahn didn't want a cheap solution to his paranoia, he wanted a permanent solution. Nahrmahn had it more right. Remain small enough to be a non-threat and keep one's territorial appetite modest.

PeterZ wrote:You misunderstand. Hektor had [no?] desire to stand against the CoGA. He wanted Corisande strong enough to be the CoGA's overlord of the outislands. I suspect his calculation was that that CoGA could use him more cheaply that doing so itself. So, yes, Hektor wanted to create a greater Corisande not to stand against the CoGA but to be the CoGA's surrogate.

He miscalculated in that Clyntahn didn't want a cheap solution to his paranoia, he wanted a permanent solution. Nahrmahn had it more right. Remain small enough to be a non-threat and keep one's territorial appetite modest.

Ahh! All right. That's plausible, anyway. I'm not sure he counted on even modest direct Church support, much less the overwhelming amount he got, but rather just harrying Charis on its Church front while he and Nahrmahn conspired to reduce it by other means. (And portraying himself so much as the loyal son of the Church that whatever "Greater Corisande" he got wouldn't fall into their crosshairs in time.) Figure that more modest package as, say, the Church introducing Tarot to the anti-Charis coalition and keeping Chisholm from supporting Charis - instead of bringing in Tarot, Chisholm, and Dohlar against it.

But I don't see any reason to suppose he wouldn't have had an interest in and will to use more Church support than he perhaps expected.

Too return to the basis of this post, the supposition has been made that if Sandria has to be sequestered, that Nynian will have to be also.I am by no means convinced that this is the case. As the head of SSK, Nynian is well aware that a non-believer is a threat that must be eliminated, as evidenced by her acceptance that if she had failed the initial test, she would have been killed. Given that in Sandria's case, the choice is going to be putting her on ice rather than killing her, I believe that Nynian will accept the fact, and continue to work with Merlin as an ally.

fallsfromtrees wrote:Too return to the basis of this post, the supposition has been made that if Sandria has to be sequestered, that Nynian will have to be also.I am by no means convinced that this is the case. As the head of SSK, Nynian is well aware that a non-believer is a threat that must be eliminated, as evidenced by her acceptance that if she had failed the initial test, she would have been killed. Given that in Sandria's case, the choice is going to be putting her on ice rather than killing her, I believe that Nynian will accept the fact, and continue to work with Merlin as an ally.

Interesting, isn't it...We really don't know what the settled (after the shock has worn off) position of either woman is going to be. Wonder if we'll find out before the publication date of the book!

Don