Thandi vs. Honor

Rereading Cauldron of Ghosts, I was struck again by Victor's description of Thandi as one of the best hand-to-hand combatants in the universe, and now I want to see her and Honor having a friendly sparring match.

I'm not sure who would win. We know Honor is good, and I'm sure she could make Thandi work for it, but I can't recall if she's ever been noted as a contender for "best in galaxy" for her CQC skills. On the other hand, she does have her empathic sense, which might give her an edge in reaction times (it certainly seemed to when she was facing Burdette).

Just saying... dueling and military CQC are NOT the same. The only military "infantry" combat I recall from her is Casimir. And, of a sort, the scape from Ramson, but that was a _scape_. With bodyguards.

Knowing you only have to worry about a single person changes things.

Take care.

What we might or might not see in future Honorverse novels regarding such a match; we need to understand that in the real world, there is a big difference between a formal sparing match and real combat "quick and dead" stuff.

This happened to a 19 years old kid in a fire fight long ago and far away. It was like being on automatic pilot. It just happened. Little conscious decision making. Just quick reactions then and some nightmares today. Yuck.

Both characters share "real world" actual hand to hand fighting when ones life is at stake. Big difference between that and an "offical" or non offical sparing match. How this could be resolved would be difficult. But ...

.... Could Mr. Weber manage to put BOTH characters into an instant lethal situation against multiple targets with no time to think about anything ... only muscle memory and the experience to come out of the unwanted hand to hand fight alive?

Then when the killing ends both look at each other and just say "thank you" and Old Tillman time? My feeble rambling point here is that it might be hard to create a sub story line where such an altercation could be accurately presented. HB of CJ (old coot) Junior Caption so salute. I love this Forum!!

Ferran wrote:Just saying... dueling and military CQC are NOT the same. The only military "infantry" combat I recall from her is Casimir. And, of a sort, the scape from Ramson, but that was a _scape_. With bodyguards.

Knowing you only have to worry about a single person changes things.

Take care.

Have you forgotten the Maccabeus Assassination attempt that was up close and very personal. IIRC Honor killed all but one of her opponents while Nimitz killed one and blinded the rest of his. IIRC Honors opponents suffered a ruptured diaphragm, a crushed larynx, a snapped spine, blunt force trauma to the skull from a thrown serving tray and the nasal bone driven into the brain.

We've had a few rounds of the question here on the boards, I think, and as far as I remember, I think the consensus is that Thandi would likely prevail, but that it'd be fun to watch.


In Cauldron of Ghosts, one of the characters says that Thandi by herself, she's probably as lethal as a squad of other combatants. They ask her if that is true, and she agrees, but that also includes weapon usage and training. Sans that...

Both have enhanced reaction speed and metabolisms, but Thandi likely outweighs Honor by 50-60 lbs (she lists her weight as +100 kilos, Honor is described as being "wide shouldered and tall" bt slender, I've though she might by 70 kilos max. Advantage Thandi for strength, Honor for speed, maybe...

We know that Honor's the equal of several mercenaries in HotQ, but most of her remaining "matches" are against opponents in the 'coup de vitesse', but she's an advanced black belt in that very ferocious style. Thandi on the other hand has black belts in multiple style so if their reaction time and strength were the same, it'd depend on diversity of style vs. the ferocious style.

My personal thought all other things being equal is that Palane wins for the simple reason that present and presumably future Marines train to kick arse all of the time; Naval officers are trained for other things and spar for recreation.

SharkHunter wrote:We've had a few rounds of the question here on the boards, I think, and as far as I remember, I think the consensus is that Thandi would likely prevail, but that it'd be fun to watch.


In Cauldron of Ghosts, one of the characters says that Thandi by herself, she's probably as lethal as a squad of other combatants. They ask her if that is true, and she agrees, but that also includes weapon usage and training. Sans that...

Both have enhanced reaction speed and metabolisms, but Thandi likely outweighs Honor by 50-60 lbs (she lists her weight as +100 kilos, Honor is described as being "wide shouldered and tall" bt slender, I've though she might by 70 kilos max. Advantage Thandi for strength, Honor for speed, maybe...

We know that Honor's the equal of several mercenaries in HotQ, but most of her remaining "matches" are against opponents in the 'coup de vitesse', but she's an advanced black belt in that very ferocious style. Thandi on the other hand has black belts in multiple style so if their reaction time and strength were the same, it'd depend on diversity of style vs. the ferocious style.

My personal thought all other things being equal is that Palane wins for the simple reason that present and presumably future Marines train to kick arse all of the time; Naval officers are trained for other things and spar for recreation.

I'm not going to predict the outcome of a contest between Thandi and Honor. But don't underestimate Honor. She has already more than amply demonstrated her capabilities in kill or be killed situations... She would be far more than just proficient.

I'm also sure that both Honor and Thandi would decline a contest with lethal consequences because they are both on the same side.

Don

saber964 wrote:Have you forgotten the Maccabeus Assassination attempt that was up close and very personal.

Yes, I had. Oops.

Mind you, two parts of my point still remain:

a) That was a long time ago

b) Defensive situation Which IS important, I'm not trying to downplay that. It is also a different skill.

Take care.

Taking into account their genetic history, I'd have to say Thandi would win in hand-to-hand, in both deathfight and friendly sparring.

Thandi's from Mfecane, and I believe specifically the planet Ndebele, which is described as heavy gravity, and also extreme. So we can read between the lines that the Mfecane worlds are heavier than Sphinx (1.3g), but not quite as high as San Martin (2.7g). Splitting the difference to say Mfecane worlds are loosely 2 gravities.

Off the wiki

Because of her ancestry, she was very tall, very strong, and very fast and agile. When combined with her Marine training, she was in many respects a super soldier. Her own capabilities include superhuman strength and agility as well as her Solarian Marine Corps training on nearly every individual weapon in the Solarian inventory.

Also, during her first encounter with Cachat, she "trips" and he responds with trained elbow jab, and a backkick, the elbow is blocked and Thandi uses a foot on his calf to stop the kick, and that "hurt" him, in the manner that he was sore and could feel it afterwards.

Additionally, Thandi is supposed to be trained in a variety of martial arts, and although she never specifically states which, it's likely to include coup de vitesse (seems to be popular amongst Manticorans, possibly League), and Neue-Stil Handgemenge (Sensei Robert Tye is supposed to be Old Earth's top three practicioners in the entire League, which means widely used).

When you couple, bigger, stronger, faster, more practiced (everyday training in hand-to-hand, not just sparring with the occasional death fight), and possibly being aware of what Honor might use (reverse not being true)... can't see Honor winning a duel or spar without plot armor.


Firearms on the other hand... Honor's kinesthesia and proven experience on the duelling field against Denver Summervale and hip-shooting, plus false eye with zoom feature would offset Thandi's 2 advantages of speed and firearm experience.

One more set of thoughts which is: obviously they're going to spar (full contact, but not to maiming), so we're going to have to take into account that both are going to pull punches. Sparring wise though, Palane has broken limbs of her "Amazons" to sort of show her "battle fangs" because one of the former 'Scrag women' pissed her off.

Honor's deadliness hand to hand is exhibited from Honor of the Queen when she gets in close among Grayson zealot gunmen and starts taking them out, plus the single slash sword duel in Flag in Exile, she's fast, strong and trained, well enough to kill easily and generally with each set of attacks. What we don't read about her inflicting is extreme body damage, however. Elsewhere I think there's a bit that places her reaction speed at 15-25% higher than a regular DNA person, but I have no idea where or why I think that.

I tend to think that Palane wins, not only by virtue of mass (guessing 30% more than Honor) but even faster reaction speed. (when she's taking out gunmen on the bridge of the Felicia III), moving so fast that to Victor's eye she practically blurs.

Hand to hand though, consider this textev from from Crown of Slaves, against both Masadans and Scrags descendants of Ukranian "super soldiers" who are supposed to be genetically very quick and strong, [I'm thinking Honor's inherited genetic mods make her about the same...] though cocky and not real well trained. Here's a little "post action review":

"For the love of God," Walter muttered, "what did she use on them? A sledgehammer?"

Victor was able to study the scene with more in the way of clinical detachment. But even he was a little shaken. It was a bit odd, perhaps, since the gore and blood left in the main gaming hall was actually far worse than this. But one expects to see gore and blood when pulsers come into play.

He looked, again, at the corpse of Abraham Templeton, lying prone on the floor. The back of his head had literally been caved in; the occiput not simply broken but splintered—and then the pieces driven a centimeter or more into the brain.

"Just her hands and feet and elbows," he said quietly. "I really don't think you understand what she is, Walter."

Thoughts?

[quote="Taurus2"]Rereading Cauldron of Ghosts, I was struck again by Victor's description of Thandi as one of the best hand-to-hand combatants in the universe, and now I want to see her and Honor having a friendly sparring match.

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Noting that Honor has her 8th Knot in Coup, and worked-off stress with her training android (safeties off); I think Honor would hold her own against Thandi.

I think Thandi would win any match much as Gunny Hollowell out-pointed Honor in their sparring match aboard Wayfarer in HAE.
I think they both would decline the match though. Neither needs to assure themselves of their position or abilities.
Fighting side-by-side (especially if Iris Babcock is there as well) would be awe-inspiring.

-- Stewart