Are Tincans and CL's obsolete to "modern" fleets?

SWM wrote:Hm. Looking at that quote again, I am reminded that this mini-keyhole would be based on Keyhole I, which doesn't have FTL comm. I'll look further to see if there is anything about FTL comm with Mark-16.

I'm still thinking that the more efficient version is making it possible to synch the attack missiles with a newer generation of the FTL drones. It isn't as good as Apollo, but it allows you to put the AI downrange in the drone and doesn't require a control missile to send gravitic pulses back to the controlling ship. That only requires FTL receivers on the Mark 16. We know that the Mark 23 has both lightspeed and FTL links already, so it's "doable if miniaturizable" to the DDM's signal reception/processing core size.

Actually, I just found a Pearl suggesting that DDMs will not be getting FTL comm:
http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/238/1

SharkHunter wrote:

SWM wrote:Hm. Looking at that quote again, I am reminded that this mini-keyhole would be based on Keyhole I, which doesn't have FTL comm. I'll look further to see if there is anything about FTL comm with Mark-16.

I'm still thinking that the more efficient version is making it possible to synch the attack missiles with a newer generation of the FTL drones. It isn't as good as Apollo, but it allows you to put the AI downrange in the drone and doesn't require a control missile to send gravitic pulses back to the controlling ship. That only requires FTL receivers on the Mark 16. We know that the Mark 23 has both lightspeed and FTL links already, so it's "doable if miniaturizable" to the DDM's signal reception/processing core size.

Here is David Weber's response to this idea, in 2005 (no idea whether anything has changed since then):
http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/158/1

Also, the Mark-23 attack missile does not have FTL links. The Mark-23 control missile (the Mark-23E) has FTL links, but the control missile is twice the size of the attack missile.

Somtaaw wrote:Lots of points I hadn't fully thought out. And the pearls look to be gold, I'll have to look at those more closely. Perhaps tincans might be near totally obsolete against any navy that relies on podnought and clac's. Although to address one point, for those defending the Sag-C's, those are heavy cruisers and weren't a ship I was thinking was useless.


Light cruisers may look to have a future, although perhaps more in the "show the flag" mission, and perhaps (merchy) escort roles than anything else.


Another reason I thought DD's and CL's to be obsolete. If most Manticoran ships are following the Grayson inspired (upsized energy weapons), the tincans and CL's are now using old-style Heavy Cruiser Grasers (and few to zero lasers, I think). Heavy Cruisers are now armed with Battlecruiser Grasers, and Battlecruisers are armed with SD Grasers.

Missiles weren't quite as upsized as the energy weapons, but there's also a notable increase in performance after you get to Heavy Cruisers and the Saganami-C Mk.16 MDM's, compared to the Mk.14 Single-Drive firing Saganami-B and smaller ships.

It gets into an argument about definitions around here.

Warships in the 60k-200k tonnage range pretty much are going by the wayside - the smaller, the faster, apart from the Torch special case. Even that 300k notional unit may end up 400k easily enough, especially if the extra 100k gets you a good bit more functionality without much more crew commitment. That's why I think we may find the notional light-cruiser/destroyer/new-frigate/whatever of the future most nearly represented now by the Saganami-C. It may not be much smaller than that, especially to include some stripped-down Keyhole and FTL missile control better than "Apollo Lite". Then there's the question of whether the RMN (for instance) would want one design to do both fleet screen and patrol duties or opt for one design for each. (Or one design for each of those and a third, larger one for both - a lot like a current DD/CL/CA scheme.)

If you're defining DD's and CL's by that 60k-200k or so tonnage range, then you'd have few people here trying to claim a bright long-term future for those.

If you're defining them by function - the way the RMN has started doing with the serious size creep - then you would have to argue that those functions simply aren't going to be done by hypercapable warships below the wall anymore. I don't think that argument is going to go well.

JeffEngel wrote:It gets into an argument about definitions around here.

Warships in the 60k-200k tonnage range pretty much are going by the wayside - the smaller, the faster, apart from the Torch special case. Even that 300k notional unit may end up 400k easily enough, especially if the extra 100k gets you a good bit more functionality without much more crew commitment. That's why I think we may find the notional light-cruiser/destroyer/new-frigate/whatever of the future most nearly represented now by the Saganami-C. It may not be much smaller than that, especially to include some stripped-down Keyhole and FTL missile control better than "Apollo Lite". Then there's the question of whether the RMN (for instance) would want one design to do both fleet screen and patrol duties or opt for one design for each. (Or one design for each of those and a third, larger one for both - a lot like a current DD/CL/CA scheme.)

If you're defining DD's and CL's by that 60k-200k or so tonnage range, then you'd have few people here trying to claim a bright long-term future for those.

If you're defining them by function - the way the RMN has started doing with the serious size creep - then you would have to argue that those functions simply aren't going to be done by hypercapable warships below the wall anymore. I don't think that argument is going to go well.

I'm mostly going by the role. Sizes were creeping up throughout both Havenite wars, but speeds were also going up approximately by the same factor as size. The definition of a class should really be by size and acceleration.

If I can build a ship twice as big as you can, and keep the same (or better) acceleration, then it's still the same ship-class imo.

SharkHunter wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Well, maybe.
Certainly in straight out fight a Roland could run rings around an old BC like that and shred it. But Hawkwing and Artemis were totally surprised. They didn't see the BC until it launched missiles!

From within the SDM range of a BC even a Roland is going to have a tough time. Yes, she'd have far better active missile defense than an old Falcon-class DD like Hawkwing. But only a single unlucky hit can knock out half her missile tubes, and even with Mk16Gs it's going to take a fair number of hits to kill a BC. Plus at shorter range you don't have time to build the screaming fast terminal velocity that make DDMs (and to a greater extent) MDMs so difficult to intercept.

Although, maybe it's not quite as bad as I'm thinking. We know Artemis managed to stop all but 5 of the initial ~18 laserheads the Sultan-class launched. And a Roland looks to have about the same active defense as a Homer-class BC (which the Atlas's defenses seem based on) plus the Roland can use both broadsides worth of CMs - so effectively double the Homer's CM throw weight. (Roland-class broadside: 10 CM; 9 PDLC. Homer-class broadside 9 CM; 9 PDLC)

Sure, if I had to pick a DD to fight an older BC from at SDM range I'd go with a Roland. But that's still a, shall we say, suboptimal way to fight one

I'm not saying that the BC could't hit the Roland and win in a sustained engagement, mind you but as you noticed, Hawkwing wasn't targeted by the "first surprise salvo", which meant that the Manticoran DD would have time to reply. Keep in mind the Dazzler and Dragon's Teeth which woul have been part of the initial stacked salvo would pretty much make sure that 20 or so Mark 16-G missiles would be on target, even at SDM range, followed by the Roland dropping limpeted pods for another salvo, followed by maybe another stacked salvo of 24 bird less ECM before the RHN missiles can even arrive. Then you have the Vipers interecepting any PN missiles from the battlecruiser at 3x the range, using all cm tubes in faster salvos, before the PDLC's even aim for the stragglers.

I seriously doubt that the PNS Kerebin would have survived those three salvo sets without an inertial compensator, bridge area, or fusion room going ker-blooey before the PN ship could get enough hits on the DD to put it out of action.

You might be right.

But two nitpicks.
1) A Roland on convoy escort is unlikely to have limpeted pods because they seem to have a lifetime of less than a week in that mode (queue kzt's request that they reinvent power cords )

2) The mk31 CMs/Vipers have more like 1.5x - 2x the range of the older CMs (depending on how much older); not 3x.


Of course in that particular scenario the other question (not addressed in the book) is what do base velocity vectors look like. Even given the Roland's extreme acceleration, could it avoid an energy range pass if the BC realized it was losing a missile fight and charged straight in. In HAE the BC was pussyfooting around with a medium range missile duel (where it didn't even bother to go to full firing rate on it's tubes until after taking a bunch of hits)

(PNS Sultan vs RMS Roland-class a la Honor Among Enemies
--snipping--

Jonathan_S wrote:

SharkHunter wrote:I'm not saying that the BC could't hit the Roland and win in a sustained engagement, mind you but as you noticed, Hawkwing wasn't targeted by the "first surprise salvo", which meant that the Manticoran DD would have time to reply. Keep in mind the Dazzler and Dragon's Teeth which woul have been part of the initial stacked salvo would pretty much make sure that 20 or so Mark 16-G missiles would be on target, even at SDM range, followed by the Roland dropping limpeted pods for another salvo, followed by maybe another stacked salvo of 24 bird less ECM before the RHN missiles can even arrive. Then you have the Vipers interecepting any PN missiles from the battlecruiser at 3x the range, using all cm tubes in faster salvos, before the PDLC's even aim for the stragglers.

I seriously doubt that the PNS Kerebin would have survived those three salvo sets without an inertial compensator, bridge area, or fusion room going ker-blooey before the PN ship could get enough hits on the DD to put it out of action.

You might be right.

But two nitpicks.
1) A Roland on convoy escort is unlikely to have limpeted pods because they seem to have a lifetime of less than a week in that mode (queue kzt's request that they reinvent power cords )

2) The mk31 CMs/Vipers have more like 1.5x - 2x the range of the older CMs (depending on how much older); not 3x.

Of course in that particular scenario the other question (not addressed in the book) is what do base velocity vectors look like. Even given the Roland's extreme acceleration, could it avoid an energy range pass if the BC realized it was losing a missile fight and charged straight in. In HAE the BC was pussyfooting around with a medium range missile duel (where it didn't even bother to go to full firing rate on it's tubes until after taking a bunch of hits)

The Sultan's top speed is listed as 490G, the Roland's max is 780G, meaning the Sultan's not going to get to energy range, this is a missile duel only.

The RMN DD will open fire as soon as they get bearings on any ship firing on their "shepherded ships", They have a free field of fire, salvo wise until the PN missiles arrive.

Limpeted pod wise, sans power cords, I guess it would depend on the length of the escort duty. So let's agree and take them out and put in a third stacked 2x2x6 salvo. Difference being, that the "Hawkwing" stacked salvo of six missiles was tearing holes in the Kerebin, imagine what the Mark-16's would do. The Roland's stacked salvo would be 24 near-capital shipkiller weight missiles, with superior ECM/Penetration (the Dazzlers and Dragons teeth) before the first PN missiles arrive. Given tube launcher speed, I think also they can just about match a stacked salvo against the single salvo speed of the older PN ship.

CM wise, you're right about the range, and I should have been more exact. I meant to say that over the extended 3MM KM range, the Roland could likely put out 3x more CMs, making it even less likely for the Sultan to survive.

Granted the Battle of Torch was task group vs task group, with ammo ships supplying the hurt, but Rozak's light cruisers all slightly less individually capable than the Rolands, and they faced the newer Warlords at even ranges, backed up by Sollie BCs, and still gave better than they got on a ship by ship basis.

I posted this in another forum and it still holds true

Marine complements
Old ships have larger marine unit attached.
DD 1 Platoon, 1 Squad BA
CL 1 Company, 1 Platoon BA
CA 1 Battalion of 3 Companies 1 Platoon in each company equipped with BA
BC 1 Battalion of 4 Companies 1 Platoon in each company equipped with BA
DN/SD 1 Battalion with 1 BA company

New units some are speculative but likely
DD None
CL 1 Platoon with BA Squad
CA 1 Company with BA Platoon
BC 2 Companies with a BA Platoon in each company
CLAC 1 company with a BA platoon plus life support for 1 Battalion on as needed bases.
SD 1 Battalion of 3 companies with likely 1 BA company

saber964 wrote:I posted this in another forum and it still holds true

Marine complements
Old ships have larger marine unit attached.
DD 1 Platoon, 1 Squad BA
CL 1 Company, 1 Platoon BA
CA 1 Battalion of 3 Companies 1 Platoon in each company equipped with BA
BC 1 Battalion of 4 Companies 1 Platoon in each company equipped with BA
DN/SD 1 Battalion with 1 BA company

New units some are speculative but likely
DD None
CL 1 Platoon with BA Squad
CA 1 Company with BA Platoon
BC 2 Companies with a BA Platoon in each company
CLAC 1 company with a BA platoon plus life support for 1 Battalion on as needed bases.
SD 1 Battalion of 3 companies with likely 1 BA company

Since I am one of those poor sods who have bum eyesight and when applying for the Airforce academy told me I would not be able to fly fighter jets, decided to go elsewhere, but who does have many members in the military along with designing their hardware over the last several decades, and who is fairly ignorant of military insider jargon, WHAT is a BA Squad? Boarding Action?
EDIT: Was this covered in HoS? Was I just blind? Hmm was there not a pearl delineating what Platoon, company etc entails in the Honorverse for total personnel etc?

Relax wrote:

saber964 wrote:I posted this in another forum and it still holds true

Marine complements
Old ships have larger marine unit attached.
DD 1 Platoon, 1 Squad BA
CL 1 Company, 1 Platoon BA
CA 1 Battalion of 3 Companies 1 Platoon in each company equipped with BA
BC 1 Battalion of 4 Companies 1 Platoon in each company equipped with BA
DN/SD 1 Battalion with 1 BA company

New units some are speculative but likely
DD None
CL 1 Platoon with BA Squad
CA 1 Company with BA Platoon
BC 2 Companies with a BA Platoon in each company
CLAC 1 company with a BA platoon plus life support for 1 Battalion on as needed bases.
SD 1 Battalion of 3 companies with likely 1 BA company

Since I am one of those poor sods who have bum eyesight and when applying for the Airforce academy told me I would not be able to fly fighter jets, decided to go elsewhere, but who does have many members in the military along with designing their hardware over the last several decades, and who is fairly ignorant of military insider jargon, WHAT is a BA Squad? Boarding Action?
EDIT: Was this covered in HoS? Was I just blind? Hmm was there not a pearl delineating what Platoon, company etc entails in the Honorverse for total personnel etc?

I'm guessing saber964 meant "Battle Armor" equipped. I don't see why all of the marines on the newer ship types wouldn't have battle armor available to them, nor why a CLAC under normal circumstances (except used outside of normal purpose a la Mobius in Shadow of Freedom) or an SD(p) would have ANY marines at all. Easier to bring along a Marine transport or even a freighter full of them bad-boys.