The SSK without Nynian and Sandaria (SPOILERS)

We now know that Nynian and Sandaria are in Nynian's cave. We have an initial negative reaction to the truth from Sandaria and at the point we are left hanging, we still don't know Nynian will respond. I believe it will eventually turn out well for both of them.

BUT...

We really don't know that. Assume it goes badly and they either remain in the cave or even further go into cryo. What happens to the SSK without their leadership? Nynian has cultivated an extensive network due to her wide ranging commercial ties and her contacts in the church. Will her sleeper cells be able to function? Where will her direct action specialists find direction and coordination?

So how do you think it works out?

Don

n7axw wrote:We now know that Nynian and Sandaria are in Nimue's cave. We have an initial negative reaction to the truth from Sandaria and at the point we are left hanging, we still don't know Nynian will respond. I believe it will eventually turn out well for both of them.

BUT...

We really don't know that. Assume it goes badly and they either remain in the cave or even further go into cryo. What happens to the SSK without their leadership? Nynian has cultivated an extensive network due to her wide ranging commercial ties and her contacts in the church. Will her sleeper cells be able to function? Where will her direct action specialists find direction and coordination?

So how do you think it works out?

Don

The SSK has managed to survive since the war, I don't see them having any big problems surviving the loss of Aivah or Sandaria. Some setbacks yes but nothing that really will threaten the existence of SSK.

Joat42 wrote:

n7axw wrote:We now know that Nynian and Sandaria are in Nimue's cave. We have an initial negative reaction to the truth from Sandaria and at the point we are left hanging, we still don't know Nynian will respond. I believe it will eventually turn out well for both of them.

BUT...

We really don't know that. Assume it goes badly and they either remain in the cave or even further go into cryo. What happens to the SSK without their leadership? Nynian has cultivated an extensive network due to her wide ranging commercial ties and her contacts in the church. Will her sleeper cells be able to function? Where will her direct action specialists find direction and coordination?

So how do you think it works out?

Don

The SSK has managed to survive since the war, I don't see them having any big problems surviving the loss of Aivah or Sandaria. Some setbacks yes but nothing that really will threaten the existence of SSK.

Agreed. That said, I think Nynian's organizations - plural - extend well beyond the SSK itself and have had her and Sandaria alone as their linkages at the top. Without them, they're going to be falling back on local control, so coordination will stop and access to information that had to go through those two would end. I would think Nynian's prepared them to continue to operate - perhaps more conservatively - if they lose access to her, but we could still expect subtle degradation in performance in some regards.

n7axw wrote:We now know that Nynian and Sandaria are in Nynian's cave. We have an initial negative reaction to the truth from Sandaria and at the point we are left hanging, we still don't know Nynian will respond. I believe it will eventually turn out well for both of them.

BUT...

We really don't know that. Assume it goes badly and they either remain in the cave or even further go into cryo. What happens to the SSK without their leadership? Nynian has cultivated an extensive network due to her wide ranging commercial ties and her contacts in the church. Will her sleeper cells be able to function? Where will her direct action specialists find direction and coordination?

So how do you think it works out?

Don

Hi Don,
Well, if I was Ninian, and I had just laid all my cards on the table for Merlin, and was about to go off with him and my second in command to some secret location, what would be my standing orders to my organization? My message would be "if I don't come back, don't trust Charis." At a minimum. "They are the enemy" At worst. Either way, I don't think it will be good for Charis. I think her organization(s) would continue to function, and become active antagonists at that point.

I find that i have an alternate opinion. the inner circle has had to much success lately in choosing its candidates i think that Sandaria may be the first experience they have of meeting the hard unmovable wall of a true believer. One that can not be displaced with logic and friendship regardless of the appeal by those they trust and love.

Faith is one of those hard to quantify subjects as it is completely subjective to the individual and what they perceive to be the truth. If your faith hinges on just believing what you are told by those in power then that's not faith. that's blind adherence to anyone in a position of authority.

Here is a perfect time for us to see how the circle will react. will some of the shining armor be diminished by our heroes or will they stain their own honor for the good of the many. If they do so.. how will that cause Nynian to perceive them?

As a reader we are on the outside looking in, our perspective is unique in that we see all faucets of the story as they unfold thus making our decisions easy.. yet no so much for those living the stories that we read.

McTurbo wrote:I find that i have an alternate opinion. the inner circle has had to much success lately in choosing its candidates i think that Sandaria may be the first experience they have of meeting the hard unmovable wall of a true believer. One that can not be displaced with logic and friendship regardless of the appeal by those they trust and love.

Faith is one of those hard to quantify subjects as it is completely subjective to the individual and what they perceive to be the truth. If your faith hinges on just believing what you are told by those in power then that's not faith. that's blind adherence to anyone in a position of authority.

Here is a perfect time for us to see how the circle will react. will some of the shining armor be diminished by our heroes or will they stain their own honor for the good of the many. If they do so.. how will that cause Nynian to perceive them?

As a reader we are on the outside looking in, our perspective is unique in that we see all faucets of the story as they unfold thus making our decisions easy.. yet no so much for those living the stories that we read.

I would not say the Inner Circle has been lucky. They have had to inform Safeholdians about the Truth. Safeholdians whose belief in their own religion is based on millions of first hand accounts of their own creation, their lives spent living with angles and the War Against the Fallen. All the first hand accounts found in the Testimonies.

As a religion the CoGA fosters commitment and agreement, not faith. The run of the mill CoGA adherent has an atrophied faith when compared to Terran Christians, Jews, Muslims and any other human religions. Or to the SSK.

That is a group that has had to question the very nature of their Church and religion. They have seen an archangel send home their hero's dead body after visiting the Temple. They have seen divine fire smite their abbey without even an explanation of their misdeeds. Even so, this sisterhood remained committed to a god that has shown all the signs of forsaking them. These people have faith...no, they have Faith.

Nynian and Sandaria believe because at their cores they know that the god the CoGA has shown proof exists is not the God that embraces them through their Faith. Perhaps more like the Ahrmahgian Satanists of Prince Roger they know that the winners in the War of the Fallen may not be God's unblemished Champions. Believing that takes Faith.

So, while I agree with everything else you post, I believe that persuading Safeholdians in general is not so difficult a task. They do not have that Faith you so correctly ascribe to Nynian and Sandaria. Show Safeholdians proof and they will compare your proof to the proof they have been taught. The Church is based on proof after all.

No the Inner Circle has not been lucky, they have simply persuaded people using acceptable evidence as proof. What evidence besides God's touch to one's soul will a person of true Faith accept in this matter? I suggest that none exist.

PeterZ wrote:

McTurbo wrote:I find that i have an alternate opinion. the inner circle has had to much success lately in choosing its candidates i think that Sandaria may be the first experience they have of meeting the hard unmovable wall of a true believer. One that can not be displaced with logic and friendship regardless of the appeal by those they trust and love.

Faith is one of those hard to quantify subjects as it is completely subjective to the individual and what they perceive to be the truth. If your faith hinges on just believing what you are told by those in power then that's not faith. that's blind adherence to anyone in a position of authority.

Here is a perfect time for us to see how the circle will react. will some of the shining armor be diminished by our heroes or will they stain their own honor for the good of the many. If they do so.. how will that cause Nynian to perceive them?

As a reader we are on the outside looking in, our perspective is unique in that we see all faucets of the story as they unfold thus making our decisions easy.. yet no so much for those living the stories that we read.

I would not say the Inner Circle has been lucky. They have had to inform Safeholdians about the Truth. Safeholdians whose belief in their own religion is based on millions of first hand accounts of their own creation, their lives spent living with angles and the War Against the Fallen. All the first hand accounts found in the Testimonies.

As a religion the CoGA fosters commitment and agreement, not faith. The run of the mill CoGA adherent has an atrophied faith when compared to Terran Christians, Jews, Muslims and any other human religions. Or to the SSK.

That is a group that has had to question the very nature of their Church and religion. They have seen an archangel send home their hero's dead body after visiting the Temple. They have seen divine fire smite their abbey without even an explanation of their misdeeds. Even so, this sisterhood remained committed to a god that has shown all the signs of forsaking them. These people have faith...no, they have Faith.

Nynian and Sandaria believe because at their cores they know that the god the CoGA has shown proof exists is not the God that embraces them through their Faith. Perhaps more like the Ahrmahgian Satanists of Prince Roger they know that the winners in the War of the Fallen may not be God's unblemished Champions. Believing that takes Faith.

So, while I agree with everything else you post, I believe that persuading Safeholdians in general is not so difficult a task. They do not have that Faith you so correctly ascribe to Nynian and Sandaria. Show Safeholdians proof and they will compare your proof to the proof they have been taught. The Church is based on proof after all.

No the Inner Circle has not been lucky, they have simply persuaded people using acceptable evidence as proof. What evidence besides God's touch to one's soul will a person of true Faith accept in this matter? I suggest that none exist.

For the purposes of this discussion, we are assuming that things go badly with Sandaria and Nynian. But a reminder is timely that there is still a good chance that things will turn out ok. Remember that what we are seeing from Sandaria is initial shock, not a final reaction.

Don

Just curious--why bother marking a thread as "SPOILERS", when you've already put the spoilers (SSK and Sandaria) in the thread title?

AClone wrote:Just curious--why bother marking a thread as "SPOILERS", when you've already put the spoilers (SSK and Sandaria) in the thread title?

If you want to avoid spoilers and haven't read any of the snippets you would not have a clue who Sandaria is, hence it's not a problem.

Don,

I think that things will go ok for Sandaria. My point is that if she accepts the Truth, she will do so because she believes Merlin et al are doing God's will as she understands it. It is the discussion around Faith that I look toward to in this story arc.