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Hot Air and the start of Flight

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Re: Hot Air and the start of Flight
Post by JRM   » Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:46 am

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Location: Honolulu, Hawaii

n7axw wrote:Hi JRM,

Right now here are a list of advantages as I see them...both ways.

For the St Klyman:
Simplicity of design. This is something that the church can make with their relatively crude manufacturing ability. It also has fewer parts for a soldier to break. I think this is what Merlin is talking about when he calls the St Klyman a superior design.
It can be designed for use with priming caps which the church has now approved. Uses cartridges rather than inserting bullet and powder separately.
Field conversion kits can be sent out to convert muzzle loaders.

Don



Hi Don

RFC was very specific on the improvements that he made to the Ferguson design, and there is no change that will alter the fact that the path that a cartridge must travel to be loaded has a 90 degree turn. There is also a structural limitation on the outer diameter of the breach plug that means unless the cartridge is very short it can't be shoehorned around that turn. Of course it is possible, I missed where RFC altered the center line of the breach plug from perpendicular to the bore to vertical to the bore with the top opening further back than the bottom opening.

The key words in the following quotes are "almost as easy to load..." and "at least as effective..."

He scowled at the neat technical drawing Owl had provided. It really was an ingenious design, he thought— one that virtually duplicated what had once been called a “Ferguson Rifle” back on Old Earth. Actually, Zhwaigair’s design, especially as modified by Fultyn, was superior to Ferguson’s in some ways. It was heavier and longer, but it also avoided the weakness in the wrist of the stock which had been part of Ferguson’s original design and the longer barrel and conical bullet would improve its ballistics. The breech screw was a multi -start thread design, like Ferguson’s, but with ten threads per inch instead of Ferguson’s twelve, and Fultyn’s decision to make it from brass instead of iron or steel would make good use of the bronze smelting capacity which would be useless for the production of rifled artillery.

Like a Mighty Army (Safehold) (pp. 237-238)


If he had to be this inventive, why couldn’t he at least have gone with a single-start screw? Nahrmahn groused . Surely he could’ve justified it on the basis that it would be simpler and cheaper to manufacture! And it would also have required ten complete revolutions to disengage a plug with uninterrupted threads. The multi-start screw required only a single partial turn of the trigger guard to which it was attached, which would speed the rate of fire considerably. And the breaks in the threads would actually help clear them of fouling; the built-up powder would be scraped off and fall through the openings each time the plug was locked up to fire. Without that, the fouling from the black powder would quickly “varnish” the screw to an extent which would make it difficult or even impossible to operate without a thorough cleaning. It remained to be seen how well the weapon would work in action, but according to Owl’s research, the original Ferguson had been capable of six to ten aimed shots per minute … with a flintlock .

If Clyntahn was willing to allow the Army of God to use primer caps, it ought to be able to reach the higher end of that rate of fire. And, of course, since the innovative bastard had specified a top-opening breech, it would be almost as easy to load from a prone position as a Mahndrayn.

Like a Mighty Army (Safehold) (pp. 238-239)

It’s not really funny , I guess, but it’s comforting to know even Merlin can make mistakes. He and Ehdwyrd were so pleased when Mahndrayn came up with a design that would be just outside the Mainland’s capabilities. One it would take them at least a year and a half to put into production because first they’d have to develop the machine tools and processes. Now the clever little protégé he wouldn’t let me assassinate’s come up with a design that’s at least as effective and they can start producing the damned thing inside a month!

Like a Mighty Army (Safehold) (p. 239)

James
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Re: Hot Air and the start of Flight
Post by Randomiser   » Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:53 am

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JRM, you seem to be arguing somewhat against your own textev. Since the St Klyman is 'at least as effective' as a Mandrayn, then the two are definitely equal and maybe the St Klyman is the better rifle, as far as effectiveness is concerned. Technically it may be streets behind but it is doable for the CoGA quick enough and at a low enough cost that they can get significant numbers into the field in time to make a difference (they think). In that sense, and for them, it is superior to the Mandrayn. I'm not great on military history, but it may be a bit like the Sherman and the Tiger tanks in WW2. The Tiger was undoubtedly the bigger, nastier tank, probably better engineered too, but the US could produce so many Shermans that they did the job that needed doing. The CoGA hope that's what the St Klyman is going to do for them. Most of us, naturally enough, are rooting for the other side.
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Re: Hot Air and the start of Flight
Post by n7axw   » Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:28 am

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JRM wrote:
n7axw wrote:Hi JRM,

Right now here are a list of advantages as I see them...both ways.

For the St Klyman:
Simplicity of design. This is something that the church can make with their relatively crude manufacturing ability. It also has fewer parts for a soldier to break. I think this is what Merlin is talking about when he calls the St Klyman a superior design.
It can be designed for use with priming caps which the church has now approved. Uses cartridges rather than inserting bullet and powder separately.
Field conversion kits can be sent out to convert muzzle loaders.

Don



Hi Don

RFC was very specific on the improvements that he made to the Ferguson design, and there is no change that will alter the fact that the path that a cartridge must travel to be loaded has a 90 degree turn. There is also a structural limitation on the outer diameter of the breach plug that means unless the cartridge is very short it can't be shoehorned around that turn. Of course it is possible, I missed where RFC altered the center line of the breach plug from perpendicular to the bore to vertical to the bore with the top opening further back than the bottom opening.

The key words in the following quotes are "almost as easy to load..." and "at least as effective..."

He scowled at the neat technical drawing Owl had provided. It really was an ingenious design, he thought— one that virtually duplicated what had once been called a “Ferguson Rifle” back on Old Earth. Actually, Zhwaigair’s design, especially as modified by Fultyn, was superior to Ferguson’s in some ways. It was heavier and longer, but it also avoided the weakness in the wrist of the stock which had been part of Ferguson’s original design and the longer barrel and conical bullet would improve its ballistics. The breech screw was a multi -start thread design, like Ferguson’s, but with ten threads per inch instead of Ferguson’s twelve, and Fultyn’s decision to make it from brass instead of iron or steel would make good use of the bronze smelting capacity which would be useless for the production of rifled artillery.

Like a Mighty Army (Safehold) (pp. 237-238)


If he had to be this inventive, why couldn’t he at least have gone with a single-start screw? Nahrmahn groused . Surely he could’ve justified it on the basis that it would be simpler and cheaper to manufacture! And it would also have required ten complete revolutions to disengage a plug with uninterrupted threads. The multi-start screw required only a single partial turn of the trigger guard to which it was attached, which would speed the rate of fire considerably. And the breaks in the threads would actually help clear them of fouling; the built-up powder would be scraped off and fall through the openings each time the plug was locked up to fire. Without that, the fouling from the black powder would quickly “varnish” the screw to an extent which would make it difficult or even impossible to operate without a thorough cleaning. It remained to be seen how well the weapon would work in action, but according to Owl’s research, the original Ferguson had been capable of six to ten aimed shots per minute … with a flintlock .

If Clyntahn was willing to allow the Army of God to use primer caps, it ought to be able to reach the higher end of that rate of fire. And, of course, since the innovative bastard had specified a top-opening breech, it would be almost as easy to load from a prone position as a Mahndrayn.

Like a Mighty Army (Safehold) (pp. 238-239)

It’s not really funny , I guess, but it’s comforting to know even Merlin can make mistakes. He and Ehdwyrd were so pleased when Mahndrayn came up with a design that would be just outside the Mainland’s capabilities. One it would take them at least a year and a half to put into production because first they’d have to develop the machine tools and processes. Now the clever little protégé he wouldn’t let me assassinate’s come up with a design that’s at least as effective and they can start producing the damned thing inside a month!

Like a Mighty Army (Safehold) (p. 239)

James


Nice post JRM. We really don't seem to be arguing. In fact your quotes really demonstrate what I've been trying to say...

We seem to have wandered a bit from hot air and the start of flight! :lol:

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Hot Air and the start of Flight
Post by JRM   » Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:58 pm

JRM
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Posts: 88
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n7axw wrote:Nice post JRM. We really don't seem to be arguing. In fact your quotes really demonstrate what I've been trying to say...

We seem to have wandered a bit from hot air and the start of flight! :lol:

Don


Hi Don,

I just thought that forum members and Nahrmahn Baytz were being overly generous in their assessment of the St.Kylmahn rifle for the reasons that I enumerated.


I didn’t add anything on Hot Air because tethered blimps are pretty much all that would help Charis. As for airships, Google airship crashes.

The problem with dirigibles and blimps too is that in order to be lighter than air, their structure can not be too substantial. So, we have crashes where the wind destroyed their structural integrity. We have crashes where the wind blew the airship into the ground, trees, buildings, mountains, the airship hanger, and power lines.

We also have problems with buoyancy. If the airship didn’t loose buoyancy and crash to the ground, they dragged sailors and troops into the air by their mooring lines until the sailors or troops fell to their death.

And then we have fire. The airships using hydrogen were awesome when they burned up, but a couple of years ago, a Goodyear blimp had an engine fire that burned the blimp in Germany.

About all that you need to know about airships is that FDR wanted start a company to fly dirigibles from New York to Chicago, and recommended that his friends keep their money out of airplanes.

American Blimp Company will build you a blimp today. The most progressive work is being done by Aeros, and Hybrid Air Vehicles. Aeros plans to use compressors to remove helium from the lift balloons to reduce buoyancy, and then inflate the balloons from the storage tanks to increase buoyancy. Hybrid Air Vehicles have built an airship with slightly negative buoyancy. The airship ascends using either or aerodynamic lift, or vectoring the thrust of its’ four engines. Hybrid Air Vehicles is using Vectran, Kevlar, and Mylar in the airship skin, and composite materials for its’ framework.

The Army cancelled a contract with Hybrid Air Vehicles because the airship was a year behind schedule, and 12,000 pounds overweight. (Also Afghanistan was winding down.) The airship was designed to have a 20 ton lift capacity, and the extra 6 tons reduced the time the airship could remain airborne from around 20 days to 5 or 6 days. They sold the airship that had cost $297 million to develop back to Hybrid Air Vehicle for $300,000.00. Hybrid Air Vehicles is planning to sell the airship to the British Army who will use it as an independent observation platform that can stay airborne for 5 to 6 days.

James
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Re: Hot Air and the start of Flight
Post by n7axw   » Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:18 pm

n7axw
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Posts: 5997
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:54 pm
Location: Viborg, SD

JRM wrote:
n7axw wrote:Nice post JRM. We really don't seem to be arguing. In fact your quotes really demonstrate what I've been trying to say...

We seem to have wandered a bit from hot air and the start of flight! :lol:

Don


Hi Don,

I just thought that forum members and Nahrmahn Baytz were being overly generous in their assessment of the St.Kylmahn rifle for the reasons that I enumerated.


I didn’t add anything on Hot Air because tethered blimps are pretty much all that would help Charis. As for airships, Google airship crashes.

The problem with dirigibles and blimps too is that in order to be lighter than air, their structure can not be too substantial. So, we have crashes where the wind destroyed their structural integrity. We have crashes where the wind blew the airship into the ground, trees, buildings, mountains, the airship hanger, and power lines.

We also have problems with buoyancy. If the airship didn’t loose buoyancy and crash to the ground, they dragged sailors and troops into the air by their mooring lines until the sailors or troops fell to their death.

And then we have fire. The airships using hydrogen were awesome when they burned up, but a couple of years ago, a Goodyear blimp had an engine fire that burned the blimp in Germany.

About all that you need to know about airships is that FDR wanted start a company to fly dirigibles from New York to Chicago, and recommended that his friends keep their money out of airplanes.

American Blimp Company will build you a blimp today. The most progressive work is being done by Aeros, and Hybrid Air Vehicles. Aeros plans to use compressors to remove helium from the lift balloons to reduce buoyancy, and then inflate the balloons from the storage tanks to increase buoyancy. Hybrid Air Vehicles have built an airship with slightly negative buoyancy. The airship ascends using either or aerodynamic lift, or vectoring the thrust of its’ four engines. Hybrid Air Vehicles is using Vectran, Kevlar, and Mylar in the airship skin, and composite materials for its’ framework.

The Army cancelled a contract with Hybrid Air Vehicles because the airship was a year behind schedule, and 12,000 pounds overweight. (Also Afghanistan was winding down.) The airship was designed to have a 20 ton lift capacity, and the extra 6 tons reduced the time the airship could remain airborne from around 20 days to 5 or 6 days. They sold the airship that had cost $297 million to develop back to Hybrid Air Vehicle for $300,000.00. Hybrid Air Vehicles is planning to sell the airship to the British Army who will use it as an independent observation platform that can stay airborne for 5 to 6 days.

James


The last observation in my previous post was intended as a joke, James. In fact this is usually what happens to these threads. I know when I start one it's usually with the prayer that I can get a couple of pages on the original subject before the inevitable hijacking occurs!
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Hot Air and the start of Flight
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Thu Feb 12, 2015 2:08 am

fallsfromtrees
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1960
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2014 10:51 am
Location: Mesa, Arizona

n7axw wrote:Nice post JRM. We really don't seem to be arguing. In fact your quotes really demonstrate what I've been trying to say...

We seem to have wandered a bit from hot air and the start of flight! :lol:

Don
JRM wrote:
Hi Don,

I just thought that forum members and Nahrmahn Baytz were being overly generous in their assessment of the St.Kylmahn rifle for the reasons that I enumerated.


I didn’t add anything on Hot Air because tethered blimps are pretty much all that would help Charis. As for airships, Google airship crashes.

The problem with dirigibles and blimps too is that in order to be lighter than air, their structure can not be too substantial. So, we have crashes where the wind destroyed their structural integrity. We have crashes where the wind blew the airship into the ground, trees, buildings, mountains, the airship hanger, and power lines.

We also have problems with buoyancy. If the airship didn’t loose buoyancy and crash to the ground, they dragged sailors and troops into the air by their mooring lines until the sailors or troops fell to their death.

And then we have fire. The airships using hydrogen were awesome when they burned up, but a couple of years ago, a Goodyear blimp had an engine fire that burned the blimp in Germany.

About all that you need to know about airships is that FDR wanted start a company to fly dirigibles from New York to Chicago, and recommended that his friends keep their money out of airplanes.

American Blimp Company will build you a blimp today. The most progressive work is being done by Aeros, and Hybrid Air Vehicles. Aeros plans to use compressors to remove helium from the lift balloons to reduce buoyancy, and then inflate the balloons from the storage tanks to increase buoyancy. Hybrid Air Vehicles have built an airship with slightly negative buoyancy. The airship ascends using either or aerodynamic lift, or vectoring the thrust of its’ four engines. Hybrid Air Vehicles is using Vectran, Kevlar, and Mylar in the airship skin, and composite materials for its’ framework.

The Army cancelled a contract with Hybrid Air Vehicles because the airship was a year behind schedule, and 12,000 pounds overweight. (Also Afghanistan was winding down.) The airship was designed to have a 20 ton lift capacity, and the extra 6 tons reduced the time the airship could remain airborne from around 20 days to 5 or 6 days. They sold the airship that had cost $297 million to develop back to Hybrid Air Vehicle for $300,000.00. Hybrid Air Vehicles is planning to sell the airship to the British Army who will use it as an independent observation platform that can stay airborne for 5 to 6 days.

James
n7axw wrote:
The last observation in my previous post was intended as a joke, James. In fact this is usually what happens to these threads. I know when I start one it's usually with the prayer that I can get a couple of pages on the original subject before the inevitable hijacking occurs!

That's what happens when you have a bunch of people with eclectic tastes and interests commenting on a variety of subjects - there tends to be a lot of free association going on. (now watch what happens to the thread)
========================

The only problem with quotes on the internet is that you can't authenticate them -- Abraham Lincoln
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Re: Hot Air and the start of Flight
Post by JRM   » Thu Feb 12, 2015 4:13 am

JRM
Lieutenant (Senior Grade)

Posts: 88
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 2:47 am
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii

fallsfromtrees wrote:
n7axw wrote:
The last observation in my previous post was intended as a joke, James. In fact this is usually what happens to these threads. I know when I start one it's usually with the prayer that I can get a couple of pages on the original subject before the inevitable hijacking occurs!


That's what happens when you have a bunch of people with eclectic tastes and interests commenting on a variety of subjects - there tends to be a lot of free association going on. (now watch what happens to the thread)


Hi Falls,

Actually, I think it is Snippet Withdrawal Symptom. We are looking for anything to consider until we get our next fix. I had just got irritated with the paeans composed to the St.Kylmahn both in this thread and #18. I think the rifle is kind of like COGA's new mortar. It is heavier, has a shorter range, and the explosive is weaker.

I was looking at #18 and wondered if it was worth it to grill my son who is in charge of one of the howitzers of the 487th FA. Who knows if we have another 15 day gap without a snippet, I may post another entry that has absolutely nothing to do with where the thread has gone.

James
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Re: Hot Air and the start of Flight
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Fri Feb 13, 2015 12:55 am

fallsfromtrees
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1960
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2014 10:51 am
Location: Mesa, Arizona

n7axw wrote:
The last observation in my previous post was intended as a joke, James. In fact this is usually what happens to these threads. I know when I start one it's usually with the prayer that I can get a couple of pages on the original subject before the inevitable hijacking occurs!
fallsfromtrees wrote:
That's what happens when you have a bunch of people with eclectic tastes and interests commenting on a variety of subjects - there tends to be a lot of free association going on. (now watch what happens to the thread)

JRM wrote:Hi Falls,

Actually, I think it is Snippet Withdrawal Symptom. We are looking for anything to consider until we get our next fix. I had just got irritated with the paeans composed to the St.Kylmahn both in this thread and #18. I think the rifle is kind of like COGA's new mortar. It is heavier, has a shorter range, and the explosive is weaker.

I was looking at #18 and wondered if it was worth it to grill my son who is in charge of one of the howitzers of the 487th FA. Who knows if we have another 15 day gap without a snippet, I may post another entry that has absolutely nothing to do with where the thread has gone.

James

Yes - we are all charter members of the Non Sequitur Society - We don't make sense, but we do like pizza.
========================

The only problem with quotes on the internet is that you can't authenticate them -- Abraham Lincoln
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Re: Hot Air and the start of Flight
Post by TN4994   » Thu Feb 19, 2015 4:33 pm

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Posts: 404
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fallsfromtrees wrote:
Yes - we are all charter members of the Non Sequitur Society - We don't make sense, but we do like pizza.


With whatever beer's available. ;)
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Re: Hot Air and the start of Flight
Post by n7axw   » Thu Feb 19, 2015 4:58 pm

n7axw
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5997
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:54 pm
Location: Viborg, SD

TN4994 wrote:
fallsfromtrees wrote:
Yes - we are all charter members of the Non Sequitur Society - We don't make sense, but we do like pizza.


With whatever beer's available. ;)


Love beer, but with pizza would settle for diet coke...

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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