Rediscovery of Technology

Michael Everett wrote:

Daryl wrote:Known fact - climate changes
Known fact - many things influence climate changes
Known fact - there is proven historical evidence regarding human actions influencing climate.
Known fact - human actions do influence climate.
Unknown facts - to what extent does human action influence climate, and how severe will the consequences be?

My opinion - researchers tend to emphasise results that will increase their funding and prestige, however even allowing for that, we are in trouble and it will continue to get worse.

Known fact - We are currently in a minor ice age.

Definition of minor ice age - Any geologically significant period of time when both poles are covered in ice.

Given we're technically in an ice age (albeit probably the first where one pole is not covered by a landmass as well), we can expect to warm up.
Given that, more energy should be put into working out how to cope than in trying to stop it since the climate is always changing.

It's like the ecosystem, a dynamic equilibrium. And trying to interfere with a dynamic equilibrium without truly understanding what is happening is like trying to overhaul a steam engine while it is running. Not a good idea.

*cough* The last ice age ending less than 20,000 years ago also had a north pole that didn't have any land masses on it. The continents of Earth have more or less been in the same shape for the last couple of million years. During which only the south pole has been covered.

Zakharra wrote: *cough* The last ice age ending less than 20,000 years ago also had a north pole that didn't have any land masses on it. The continents of Earth have more or less been in the same shape for the last couple of million years. During which only the south pole has been covered.

*Cough* We are still recovering from the last ice age. It did not magically end 10,000years ago. Glaciers were still huge in mountainous regions. Only thing that happened roughly 10,000 years ago is that low lying land mass was ice free. Couple thousand years ago, North Africa was a very nice place to live. Might have noticed, it is a massive desert now and it is expanding as it has been doing for several thousand years.

A few thousand years ago, the Gobi desert in China was a gigantic lake too. Its obviously spread far beyond its initial dried up lake bed area now. The ol' silk road. Effectively one of the major pushes for international shipping was the failure of the silk road due to the continued expansion of the Gobi desert limiting caravans combined with the Ottomans who "cut" the silk road to western europe who really wanted the silk. Remember it was the Romans who started the Silk craze. 500? Or was it more? years earlier the Persians opened the route.

Anyways, the world has been "recovering" from the ice ages for a very long time and it takes thousands of years for the effects to take hold. Greenland/Antartica are still holdovers and we think the Gulf of Alaskas total glacier cover is only possible due to the initial ice age inundation as it is clearly evident from those same glaciers that they have been shrinking for a very long time but at a much slower rate than elsewhere due to their favorable conditions.

smr wrote:Ancient stone carvings in India, these stone carvings look just like rocket engines. I am not scientist but I think most people can connect the dots and say we had higher technological level than the official history books record.

A person needs to only view about the first 30 to 40 seconds to understand what they are showing you (they loop it).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsgOzwbxEC8

You might want to do a bit more research, eg making sure that its actually in India and not say Mexico, might help people take it seriously. Also it only looks vaguely like a rocket engine and looks closer to a flower (particularly with the petal like bits) than a rocket, particularly as there is nowhere for a combustion chamber or other needed parts for a rocket and bunch of purely decorative features.

SMR wrote:I do agree that we are experiencing some climate change. By definition the world is always going through climate change. The fact that people on the other end of the argument are unable to admit that the data is being manipulated by certain scientists.

Oh yes, lets ignore valid research from a hundred thousand very serious and devoted professional scientists AND equally valid research from ten times as many amateur researchers, because there´s, oh dear, over a DOZEN people doing fake crap that gets exposed exactly thanks to scientists checking each other work...

Please...



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Daryl wrote:Known fact - there is proven historical evidence regarding human actions influencing climate.
Known fact - human actions do influence climate.

In recent years, retroactive research have made that extremely blatant, as there are some massive influences shown after WWI and WWII.

Unknown facts - to what extent does human action influence climate, and how severe will the consequences be?

Based on what IS known or at least indicated so far, i expect i´m going to have it nice and warm here. Not looking so good for what is currently the most productive food producing areas though.

Could be worse. You could be dutch. Although they are half fish by now, so really with the amount of their country that should be marshland, they should be the frogs not the french....

Tenshinai wrote:Based on what IS known or at least indicated so far, i expect i´m going to have it nice and warm here. Not looking so good for what is currently the most productive food producing areas though.

Daryl wrote:Known fact - climate changes
Known fact - many things influence climate changes
Known fact - there is proven historical evidence regarding human actions influencing climate.
Known fact - human actions do influence climate.
Unknown facts - to what extent does human action influence climate, and how severe will the consequences be?

My opinion - researchers tend to emphasise results that will increase their funding and prestige, however even allowing for that, we are in trouble and it will continue to get worse.

Michael Everett wrote:Known fact - We are currently in a minor ice age.

Definition of minor ice age - Any geologically significant period of time when both poles are covered in ice.

Given we're technically in an ice age (albeit probably the first where one pole is not covered by a landmass as well), we can expect to warm up.
Given that, more energy should be put into working out how to cope than in trying to stop it since the climate is always changing.

It's like the ecosystem, a dynamic equilibrium. And trying to interfere with a dynamic equilibrium without truly understanding what is happening is like trying to overhaul a steam engine while it is running. Not a good idea.

Zakharra wrote:

*cough* The last ice age ending less than 20,000 years ago also had a north pole that didn't have any land masses on it. The continents of Earth have more or less been in the same shape for the last couple of million years. During which only the south pole has been covered.

In fact there have been a series of ice ages over the last 2 million years, usually lasting about 100,000 years with a 10,00 year interregnum between them. The last ice age ended about 12,000 years ago - just possibly we have avoided entering into one because every time it got really cold, mankind threw another log on the fire. If this is the case, I would want to be very sure about what I was doing before I started any massive programs on CO2 reduction - simply because while rising ocean levels are a threat, falling ocean levels because the planet is covered in ice are even more of a threat. I am not arguing for or against climate change - I am arguing that there needs to be a whole lot of "honest" research done before we start making massive changes to the environment.

smr wrote: One of fellow forum members was saying their was not enough mass left in the asteroid belt to be a planet. My response was the main asteroid belt is the remains of a planet. Most of the planet would have been pushed off into deep space!

The problem is that it takes an incredible amount of energy to destroy a planet, and even more to accelerate the debries to high enough velocities to go into deep space.

For example of the theoretical planet was the same size as Earth it would require in the order of 2x10^32 joules to break it up (ie reduce it to a cloud of debris that is not gravitationally bound to itself), or to put it another way roughly a week's worth of the total energy output of the Sun, or the reaction of a bit over a quadrillion tons of antimatter with a similar amount of matter.

What is your proposed mechanism for generating such a large rapid release of energy?

Grashtel wrote:

smr wrote: One of fellow forum members was saying their was not enough mass left in the asteroid belt to be a planet. My response was the main asteroid belt is the remains of a planet. Most of the planet would have been pushed off into deep space!

The problem is that it takes an incredible amount of energy to destroy a planet, and even more to accelerate the debries to high enough velocities to go into deep space.

For example of the theoretical planet was the same size as Earth it would require in the order of 2x10^32 joules to break it up (ie reduce it to a cloud of debris that is not gravitationally bound to itself), or to put it another way roughly a week's worth of the total energy output of the Sun, or the reaction of a bit over a quadrillion tons of antimatter with a similar amount of matter.

What is your proposed mechanism for generating such a large rapid release of energy?

The asteroid belt is stuff that didn't form a planet due to Jupiter's influence - and over the last 5 billion years, Jupiter has perturbed a fair bit of it out of the belt - although ejected into spce is unlikely, it is possible.

Relax wrote:

Zakharra wrote: *cough* The last ice age ending less than 20,000 years ago also had a north pole that didn't have any land masses on it. The continents of Earth have more or less been in the same shape for the last couple of million years. During which only the south pole has been covered.

*Cough* We are still recovering from the last ice age. It did not magically end 10,000years ago. Glaciers were still huge in mountainous regions. Only thing that happened roughly 10,000 years ago is that low lying land mass was ice free. Couple thousand years ago, North Africa was a very nice place to live. Might have noticed, it is a massive desert now and it is expanding as it has been doing for several thousand years.

A few thousand years ago, the Gobi desert in China was a gigantic lake too. Its obviously spread far beyond its initial dried up lake bed area now. The ol' silk road. Effectively one of the major pushes for international shipping was the failure of the silk road due to the continued expansion of the Gobi desert limiting caravans combined with the Ottomans who "cut" the silk road to western europe who really wanted the silk. Remember it was the Romans who started the Silk craze. 500? Or was it more? years earlier the Persians opened the route.

Anyways, the world has been "recovering" from the ice ages for a very long time and it takes thousands of years for the effects to take hold. Greenland/Antartica are still holdovers and we think the Gulf of Alaskas total glacier cover is only possible due to the initial ice age inundation as it is clearly evident from those same glaciers that they have been shrinking for a very long time but at a much slower rate than elsewhere due to their favorable conditions.

I know that. I was responding to Michael Everett who was stating we are still in an ice age.

So much for global warming on this date! Oh, I know we have climate change...we could say that our entire documented and undocumented history!

http://www.climatedepot.com/2015/02/28/noaa-2185-cold-records-broken-or-tied-in-past-week-1913-low-min-records-broken-272-tied-in-7-days/

As I have stated before let's have some honest information exchange and research on the subject. I just want honest information and then let's take the time to make the correct decision not a propaganda decision designed to line someone's pockets.