Religion After the Big Reveal (Speculation)

Luke: Search your feelings, Father, you can't do this. I feel the conflict within you. Let go of your hate.

Darth Vader: It is too late for me, son. The Emperor will show you the true nature of the Force. He is your master now.

Luke: Then my father is truly dead.

gcomeau wrote:

jgnfld wrote:...
Almost all religions are rip-offs of ones that already existed, going way way way way back...

jgnfld wrote:Luke: Search your feelings, Father, you can't do this. I feel the conflict within you. Let go of your hate.

Darth Vader: It is too late for me, son. The Emperor will show you the true nature of the Force. He is your master now.

Luke: Then my father is truly dead.

gcomeau wrote:Almost all religions are rip-offs of ones that already existed, going way way way way back...

Yes, I suppose Jedi-ism could possibly be considered to be a unique (although fictional) religious innovation.



(Although I'm sure we could put together a decent argument that the Prophet Lucas borrowed plenty from existing religious traditions as well).

gcomeau wrote:
Yes, I suppose Jedi-ism could possibly be considered to be a unique (although fictional) religious innovation.



(Although I'm sure we could put together a decent argument that the Prophet Lucas borrowed plenty from existing religious traditions as well).

Yeah, and you could start with the Hidden Fortress, 1958, by Akira Kurosawa and continue on to pretty much every heroic myth you have ever heard of, never mind religions

Keith_w wrote:

gcomeau wrote:
Yes, I suppose Jedi-ism could possibly be considered to be a unique (although fictional) religious innovation.



(Although I'm sure we could put together a decent argument that the Prophet Lucas borrowed plenty from existing religious traditions as well).

Yeah, and you could start with the Hidden Fortress, 1958, by Akira Kurosawa and continue on to pretty much every heroic myth you have ever heard of, never mind religions

Has anyone considered that 12 petabyte file on Wylsyn's paper weight. IIRC there was testev that that was the size of a personality dump - what are the possibilities that if that is placed into the machines in Zion that the Archangel Shueler will make an announcement that will set off the new nage - possibly by denouncing Langhorne, and declaring the truth - he was actually one of Shan-Wei's plants who survived because he knew what Kau Yung was about to do, and he made himself absent - and then acted as yet a third arrow to Shan-Wei's bow - designed to come back after all of the other Archangels had long gone.

fallsfromtrees wrote:Has anyone considered that 12 petabyte file on Wylsyn's paper weight. IIRC there was testev that that was the size of a personality dump - what are the possibilities that if that is placed into the machines in Zion that the Archangel Shueler will make an announcement that will set off the new nage - possibly by denouncing Langhorne, and declaring the truth - he was actually one of Shan-Wei's plants who survived because he knew what Kau Yung was about to do, and he made himself absent - and then acted as yet a third arrow to Shan-Wei's bow - designed to come back after all of the other Archangels had long gone.

I'd peg him more likely as someone disaffected from Langhorne's vision by the end of the War of the Fallen rather than in the Pei/Pei camp from long before it. But yeah, it's occurred to me. I just don't think it would play out in an appropriate narrative fashion.

If Charis is winning or has won then, a friendly archangel putting in an appearance is anticlimactic. If Charis is losing and the friendly archangel appears, it'll look like an ass-pull (pardon), a somewhat literal deus ex machina, and it will be a grossly unsatisfying end. (Granted, Out of the Dark had a similar conclusion, but I at least took that as a grossly unsatisfying end and it was just one book.)

JeffEngel wrote:

fallsfromtrees wrote:Has anyone considered that 12 petabyte file on Wylsyn's paper weight. IIRC there was testev that that was the size of a personality dump - what are the possibilities that if that is placed into the machines in Zion that the Archangel Shueler will make an announcement that will set off the new nage - possibly by denouncing Langhorne, and declaring the truth - he was actually one of Shan-Wei's plants who survived because he knew what Kau Yung was about to do, and he made himself absent - and then acted as yet a third arrow to Shan-Wei's bow - designed to come back after all of the other Archangels had long gone.

I'd peg him more likely as someone disaffected from Langhorne's vision by the end of the War of the Fallen rather than in the Pei/Pei camp from long before it. But yeah, it's occurred to me. I just don't think it would play out in an appropriate narrative fashion.

If Charis is winning or has won then, a friendly archangel putting in an appearance is anticlimactic. If Charis is losing and the friendly archangel appears, it'll look like an ass-pull (pardon), a somewhat literal deus ex machina, and it will be a grossly unsatisfying end. (Granted, Out of the Dark had a similar conclusion, but I at least took that as a grossly unsatisfying end and it was just one book.)

Possibly. I can certainly see some people getting disillusioned by Langhorne's actions in destroying Alexandria, and going over tot he other side either explicitly as the War against the Fallen indicates, or in the end as in St Kohdy, or covertly. Of course the thousand year visitation may well be someone's estimate of how long it would take for the church to go off the rails, not realizing that Merlin and Nimue would be along to mess up the calculations (ala the Mule in the Foundation trilogy). Where oh where is Hari Seldon when you need him?

fallsfromtrees wrote:Has anyone considered that 12 petabyte file on Wylsyn's paper weight. IIRC there was testev that that was the size of a personality dump - what are the possibilities that if that is placed into the machines in Zion that the Archangel Shueler will make an announcement that will set off the new nage - possibly by denouncing Langhorne, and declaring the truth - he was actually one of Shan-Wei's plants who survived because he knew what Kau Yung was about to do, and he made himself absent - and then acted as yet a third arrow to Shan-Wei's bow - designed to come back after all of the other Archangels had long gone.

Yes, it's been suggested. But with little textev, it is hard to evaluate the idea.

The biggest argument against it is that Schueler ordered the Wylsynn family to support the CoGA, to keep it on the straight and narrow path. Yes, the Wylsynns have been reformers, but that reformation was intended to bring the CoGA back to what Langhorne originally planned. That does not seem the action of a secret Shan Wei follower.

Another possibility is that Schueler was a follower of Langhorne, but had concerns that Shan Wei might be right about the inevitability of technological development despite Langhorne's safeguards. While hoping that Langhorne would be able to safeguard humanity by stunting technology, he may not have been willing to doom humanity to facing the Gbaba without warning should Langhorne be wrong. He could have set up a backup plan to reveal the Truth if the Langhorne Plan failed.

SWM wrote:

fallsfromtrees wrote:Has anyone considered that 12 petabyte file on Wylsyn's paper weight. IIRC there was testev that that was the size of a personality dump - what are the possibilities that if that is placed into the machines in Zion that the Archangel Shueler will make an announcement that will set off the new nage - possibly by denouncing Langhorne, and declaring the truth - he was actually one of Shan-Wei's plants who survived because he knew what Kau Yung was about to do, and he made himself absent - and then acted as yet a third arrow to Shan-Wei's bow - designed to come back after all of the other Archangels had long gone.

Yes, it's been suggested. But with little textev, it is hard to evaluate the idea.

The biggest argument against it is that Schueler ordered the Wylsynn family to support the CoGA, to keep it on the straight and narrow path. Yes, the Wylsynns have been reformers, but that reformation was intended to bring the CoGA back to what Langhorne originally planned. That does not seem the action of a secret Shan Wei follower.

Another possibility is that Schueler was a follower of Langhorne, but had concerns that Shan Wei might be right about the inevitability of technological development despite Langhorne's safeguards. While hoping that Langhorne would be able to safeguard humanity by stunting technology, he may not have been willing to doom humanity to facing the Gbaba without warning should Langhorne be wrong. He could have set up a backup plan to reveal the Truth if the Langhorne Plan failed.

Or just to put an open, informed, and awesomely respected mind there down the road to make some judgments based on how things turn out. By the end of the War of the Fallen, it's entirely possible someone may have figured that, that far down the road, Safehold may have fallen to a corrupt Church, to schisms, and/or to technological advancement that may or may not be practically stoppable, and if it wasn't something the returned Schuler could or felt he should stop, then they'd dearly need the warning about the Gbaba.

Certainly there were quite a few things to worry about; the visitation may not have been against a single worrisome possibility, or with a predetermined judgment in case of it.

interesting speculation all around.

the problem with much of it is that there's no reason to believe - and, as far as I can tell, Father Paityr _doesn't_ believe it - that the Key has anything to do with the Millenial Visitation. nothing said so far suggests that the Wylsynns have to be present with their key for it to occur, and Paityr certainly doesn't seem to think he can do anything to delay it.

however Schueler may have been involved in the set up for the return, the personality in the Key, if that is indeed what it is, was intended to take charge of the Temple systems under the circumstances prescribed for it's use: an existential threat to the Church. the fact that he created it suggests that he expected it to be used. perhaps he managed to get a hint of the Peis' fallback plan - and _didn't_ anticipate the last Wylsynns signing on with it. or, perhaps, he anticipated something rather along the lines of what's been happening over the last 3 centuries, but didn't anticipate that the Wylsynns would not equate an existential threat to _themselves_ with one to the Church [in which case he did his work a little too well].

i have no idea what Schueler's plan might have been, but it would seem to have been quite distinct from the return, or the Key would simply wake one or more of the stored personalities - assuming that that is the plan for the return, of course - set up for that, and perhaps provide some extra data. given what Narhmahn and Owl found on the Key, i'd guess that using it will invoke something a great deal more complicated than that - possibly going as far as complete subversion of the Temple, placing it completely under the Wylsynn's control. and making them, in effect, archangels themselves. or maybe just giving _Schueler_ that control, with his descendants as his vicars and principal advisors.

JeffEngel wrote:

SWM wrote:Yes, it's been suggested. But with little textev, it is hard to evaluate the idea.

The biggest argument against it is that Schueler ordered the Wylsynn family to support the CoGA, to keep it on the straight and narrow path. Yes, the Wylsynns have been reformers, but that reformation was intended to bring the CoGA back to what Langhorne originally planned. That does not seem the action of a secret Shan Wei follower.

Another possibility is that Schueler was a follower of Langhorne, but had concerns that Shan Wei might be right about the inevitability of technological development despite Langhorne's safeguards. While hoping that Langhorne would be able to safeguard humanity by stunting technology, he may not have been willing to doom humanity to facing the Gbaba without warning should Langhorne be wrong. He could have set up a backup plan to reveal the Truth if the Langhorne Plan failed.

fallsfromtrees wrote:Has anyone considered that 12 petabyte file on Wylsyn's paper weight. IIRC there was testev that that was the size of a personality dump - what are the possibilities that if that is placed into the machines in Zion that the Archangel Shueler will make an announcement that will set off the new nage - possibly by denouncing Langhorne, and declaring the truth - he was actually one of Shan-Wei's plants who survived because he knew what Kau Yung was about to do, and he made himself absent - and then acted as yet a third arrow to Shan-Wei's bow - designed to come back after all of the other Archangels had long gone.

Or just to put an open, informed, and awesomely respected mind there down the road to make some judgments based on how things turn out. By the end of the War of the Fallen, it's entirely possible someone may have figured that, that far down the road, Safehold may have fallen to a corrupt Church, to schisms, and/or to technological advancement that may or may not be practically stoppable, and if it wasn't something the returned Schuler could or felt he should stop, then they'd dearly need the warning about the Gbaba.

Certainly there were quite a few things to worry about; the visitation may not have been against a single worrisome possibility, or with a predetermined judgment in case of it.

Louis R wrote:interesting speculation all around.

the problem with much of it is that there's no reason to believe - and, as far as I can tell, Father Paityr _doesn't_ believe it - that the Key has anything to do with the Millenial Visitation. nothing said so far suggests that the Wylsynns have to be present with their key for it to occur, and Paityr certainly doesn't seem to think he can do anything to delay it.

however Schueler may have been involved in the set up for the return, the personality in the Key, if that is indeed what it is, was intended to take charge of the Temple systems under the circumstances prescribed for it's use: an existential threat to the Church. the fact that he created it suggests that he expected it to be used. perhaps he managed to get a hint of the Peis' fallback plan - and _didn't_ anticipate the last Wylsynns signing on with it. or, perhaps, he anticipated something rather along the lines of what's been happening over the last 3 centuries, but didn't anticipate that the Wylsynns would not equate an existential threat to _themselves_ with one to the Church [in which case he did his work a little too well].

i have no idea what Schueler's plan might have been, but it would seem to have been quite distinct from the return, or the Key would simply wake one or more of the stored personalities - assuming that that is the plan for the return, of course - set up for that, and perhaps provide some extra data. given what Narhmahn and Owl found on the Key, i'd guess that using it will invoke something a great deal more complicated than that - possibly going as far as complete subversion of the Temple, placing it completely under the Wylsynn's control. and making them, in effect, archangels themselves. or maybe just giving _Schueler_ that control, with his descendants as his vicars and principal advisors.

You are correct that there is no reason to believe that the Key has anything to do with the Millennial Return. We aren't suggesting that they are connected. There doesn't have to be--they could be (and appear to be) completely unrelated things. If the Key does have a personality recorded on it, then it is obviously intended to be activated when the Key used--which Schueler ordered be done only if the Church itself was in the direst of danger. Such a dire danger, threatening the very existence of the Church, would clearly be an indication of a failure of Langhorne's plan. But this activation has nothing to do with the Millennial Return. They are separate things entirely.