Religion After the Big Reveal (Speculation)

jgnfld wrote:Let's just say I think you are reading a different series of books written by an author with a different publically-stated personal mindset than I am and leave it at that.

Now you're just being incomprehensible. What in the world does the mindset of the author have to do with a single thing we have been discussing here?

Could we please get back on the actual topic of this thread, which is quite interesting to consider? What happens after the people of Safehold are told that their entire religion is a fraud designed to keep them in chains forever?

Naturally there will be a large percentage who will reject that information, because it doesn't agree with their worldview and they're unwilling/unable to change it. There's also the social implications - Safehold society is organized and largely governed by the teachings in the Writ and everyone being a member of the CoGA. Take that away, and society may well fall apart. It will certainly evolve in violent ways, as RFC has predicted in the text. Samuel Wylsynn expected multiple schisms, and he had no clue that the church is a lie. So not only will there be a large number who will reject the truth, the church may continue to fragment.

A very large percentage will decide that if the church was a lie - and a very pernicious, damaging lie at that, then God must not exist. I'd expect a high percentage of Safehold to become atheists.

A smaller percentage will follow Staynair and continue to believe in God.

Once the teachings of the various religions of Terra are released, I'd expect some people to adhere to those they like most if they wish to believe in God/gods/a higher power, etc., but not in a religion that is a demonstrable lie.

There will certainly be a lot of people who take a middle road and become agnostics. For the sake of this discussion I'll consider an agnostic to be anyone who thinks "I don't know if there's a God, but I don't dismiss the possibility." Their actions may range from practically atheist to actively participating in a religion to see if they can find God, and anything in between.

Whatever the final result, the human race needs to get past religion as a dividing force if it is to return to the stars and defeat the Gbaba! That isn't going to be easy for the first few generations as they recover from the shock, battle one another over the "truth," and try to find ways to coexist in a world in which religion is no longer a worldwide unifying force or "one size fits all."

McGuiness wrote:Could we please get back on the actual topic of this thread, which is quite interesting to consider? What happens after the people of Safehold are told that their entire religion is a fraud designed to keep them in chains forever?

I'm still with my original projection... once people are filled in on what really happened you'll get a proliferation of people learning about the "religion of the ancients from humanity's true homeworld" and then fumbling their way into trying to resurrect them because hey, the ancient learned ancestors who predated our existence on this world believed this stuff so there must be something to it!


And then the fighting will start over who's resurrecting the right ones the right ways.

gcomeau wrote:

McGuiness wrote:Could we please get back on the actual topic of this thread, which is quite interesting to consider? What happens after the people of Safehold are told that their entire religion is a fraud designed to keep them in chains forever?

I'm still with my original projection... once people are filled in on what really happened you'll get a proliferation of people learning about the "religion of the ancients from humanity's true homeworld" and then fumbling their way into trying to resurrect them because hey, the ancient learned ancestors who predated our existence on this world believed this stuff so there must be something to it!

And then the fighting will start over who's resurrecting the right ones the right ways.

I shudder to think that the conclusion of one set of grievous religious wars should lead right into the set up for a new one, on behalf of religions no one gets from swordpoint or as an impressionable child, or even from some actual living adherent of the religion.

I can't rule it out, but yeesh, it's nightmare fuel.

Also, the final accomplishment - one would say its crowning achievement - of the world of the "ancient learned ancestors" was Operation Ark, the Writ, and the Church of God Awaiting. If you'd like to package that with Merlin and Shan-wei's other "arrows", it's still a mixed bag and clear evidence that the "ancient learned ancestors" couldn't reach a consensus and certainly could lie mighty well. Our remote descendants on Safehold can learn from us, certainly, but that we believed something absolutely doesn't mean we're on to something doing it.

First off, there is, of course, the probability of a Reformation which involves a splintering but with essentials intact. We are on that road already due to the war. The problem with releasing all the information about previous religions meaning much over the short to medium haul is that the cultural milieu for a millenium has been one god. So beyond that, I can foresee the development of some agnosticism/deism sorts of things, probably some atheism. But I see no possibility whatever of reconstituting Buddhism, Hinduism etc. even Judaism or Islam until some prophet comes along. And how often do we see Moseses, Jesuses, Muhammads, and Buddhas come along each millennium? Even Staynair is more of a Luther than a religion initiator. So a Reformation might happen, but not a huge splintering beyond that over any short to medium term.

gcomeau wrote:

McGuiness wrote:Could we please get back on the actual topic of this thread, which is quite interesting to consider? What happens after the people of Safehold are told that their entire religion is a fraud designed to keep them in chains forever?

I'm still with my original projection... once people are filled in on what really happened you'll get a proliferation of people learning about the "religion of the ancients from humanity's true homeworld" and then fumbling their way into trying to resurrect them because hey, the ancient learned ancestors who predated our existence on this world believed this stuff so there must be something to it!


And then the fighting will start over who's resurrecting the right ones the right ways.

jgnfld wrote:The problem with even releasing information about previous religions meaning much over the short to medium haul is that the cultural milieu for a millenium has been one god. So first off, there is, of course, the probability of a Reformation which involves a splintering but with essentials intact. We are on that road already due to the war. Beyond that, I can foresee the development of some agnosticism/deism sorts of things, probably some atheism. But I see no possibility whatever of reconstituting Buddhism, Hinduism etc. even Judaism or Islam until some prophet comes along. And how often do we see Moseses, Jesuses, Muhammads, and Buddhas come along each millennium? So a Reformation might happen, but not a huge splintering beyond that over any short to medium term.

I suppose someone with a really eclectic bent may take the Writ as the joint product of divine inspiration - summing up for the people of Safehold all the wisdom of Terrestrial science and religion - and the self-serving and mission-requisite shenanigans of Langhorne and his crew. The bits of it cribbed from prior religions and literature would be read as divinely inspired to begin with and sustained by Langhorne and Chihiro, perhaps despite their having "fallen" from "the true faith". Or they could be read not as fallen but as fallible humans, receiving pure divine word but screwing it up a lot because hey, sin.

It's a story that at least places the old Terran legacy in the religious context that Safehold will have after the revelation.

JeffEngel wrote:

gcomeau wrote:I'm still with my original projection... once people are filled in on what really happened you'll get a proliferation of people learning about the "religion of the ancients from humanity's true homeworld" and then fumbling their way into trying to resurrect them because hey, the ancient learned ancestors who predated our existence on this world believed this stuff so there must be something to it!

And then the fighting will start over who's resurrecting the right ones the right ways.

I shudder to think that the conclusion of one set of grievous religious wars should lead right into the set up for a new one, on behalf of religions no one gets from swordpoint or as an impressionable child, or even from some actual living adherent of the religion.

I can't rule it out, but yeesh, it's nightmare fuel.

Also, the final accomplishment - one would say its crowning achievement - of the world of the "ancient learned ancestors" was Operation Ark, the Writ, and the Church of God Awaiting. If you'd like to package that with Merlin and Shan-wei's other "arrows", it's still a mixed bag and clear evidence that the "ancient learned ancestors" couldn't reach a consensus and certainly could lie mighty well. Our remote descendants on Safehold can learn from us, certainly, but that we believed something absolutely doesn't mean we're on to something doing it.

The looming threat of extermination by the Gbaba would probably hold that off for a while, but eventually I would see it as inevitable in the long term given human nature. Particularly if the Gbaba are dealt with. But I would assume that the reveal would include the fact that Langhorn massively overstepped his authority and came up with the Writ among him and his little leadership cadre...which prompted Shan Wei's resistance, etc... not that Langhorn was following the desires of the assembled unified human race that launched the Ark. Since he most certainly was not.

It's inevitable really. The only reason Safehold hasn't had a centuries long history of periodic serious religious conflicts is because of the extremely thorough brainwashing job that was done on a planetary scale to eliminate any possibility of competing religious doctrines or authorities of significance.


But once you start getting them? Multiple widely disparate and mutually contradictory claims to religious truth?


Since beliefs based on faith have no objective arbiter of which one is right, you're screwed. There's no settling things. And eventually someone is going to pick a fight over it.

jgnfld wrote:First off, there is, of course, the probability of a Reformation which involves a splintering but with essentials intact. We are on that road already due to the war. The problem with even releasing information about previous religions meaning much over the short to medium haul is that the cultural milieu for a millenium has been one god. So beyond that, I can foresee the development of some agnosticism/deism sorts of things, probably some atheism. But I see no possibility whatever of reconstituting Buddhism, Hinduism etc. even Judaism or Islam until some prophet comes along. And how often do we see Moseses, Jesuses, Muhammads, and Buddhas come along each millennium? So a Reformation might happen, but not a huge splintering beyond that over any short to medium term.

You ask how many times each millennium a prophet comes along? Let's see...
In the 16th Century there was John Calvin and Martin Luther.
In the 1820s there was a fellow names Joseph Smith.
In 1876 there was Mary Baker Eddy.
In 1894 there was Swami Vivekenanda.
In 1949 there was Gerald Gardner.
In 1955 there was L. Ron Hubbard.
In 1958 there was Maharishi Mahesh Yogi.
In the 1960s there was Abhay Charanaravinda Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.
In 1970 there was Sun Myung Moon.
In 1978 there was Jim Jones.
I could go on.
(Please note that I am not in any way equating the people named above; they are simply a handful of the hundreds of people in the last couple centuries who have founded new religious movements and gained some following).

Prophets are actually quite common. Prophets that get a significant following are not that uncommon. You are only thinking of the most prominent prophets in history. In the time of Jesus, there were dozens of other prophets. Especially in times of troubles, prophets will appear quickly.

I think it is quite plausible that there will be a surge of prophets to fill the vacuum as the CoGA collapses.

I should have been more clear. How many times/millenium does any "prophet" start a while new religion not just a branch off of older religions?

Sure, lots of Reformation-type and after branching. Weslyans and Anabaptists galore! Return to Hindu, Buddhism, Judaism, Islam, Bahai, etc. or start of whole new branches we've never heard of from root, superuser level just not so likely. Even the Branch Davidians and Jones really weren't all that nonChristian, exactly. They accepted the Bible their own way.

SWM wrote:

jgnfld wrote:First off, there is, of course, the probability of a Reformation which involves a splintering but with essentials intact. We are on that road already due to the war. The problem with even releasing information about previous religions meaning much over the short to medium haul is that the cultural milieu for a millenium has been one god. So beyond that, I can foresee the development of some agnosticism/deism sorts of things, probably some atheism. But I see no possibility whatever of reconstituting Buddhism, Hinduism etc. even Judaism or Islam until some prophet comes along. And how often do we see Moseses, Jesuses, Muhammads, and Buddhas come along each millennium? So a Reformation might happen, but not a huge splintering beyond that over any short to medium term.

You ask how many times each millennium a prophet comes along? Let's see...
In the 16th Century there was John Calvin and Martin Luther.
In the 1820s there was a fellow names Joseph Smith.
In 1876 there was Mary Baker Eddy.
In 1894 there was Swami Vivekenanda.
In 1949 there was Gerald Gardner.
In 1955 there was L. Ron Hubbard.
In 1958 there was Maharishi Mahesh Yogi.
In the 1960s there was Abhay Charanaravinda Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.
In 1970 there was Sun Myung Moon.
In 1978 there was Jim Jones.
I could go on.
(Please note that I am not in any way equating the people named above; they are simply a handful of the hundreds of people in the last couple centuries who have founded new religious movements and gained some following).

Prophets are actually quite common. Prophets that get a significant following are not that uncommon. You are only thinking of the most prominent prophets in history. In the time of Jesus, there were dozens of other prophets. Especially in times of troubles, prophets will appear quickly.

I think it is quite plausible that there will be a surge of prophets to fill the vacuum as the CoGA collapses.

jgnfld wrote:I should have been more clear. How many times/millenium does any "prophet" start a while new religion not just a branch off of older religions?

But after the reveal we're talking the latter, not the former.

so...



On the other hand if you're talking the former, very rarely indeed. Don't even get to count Jesus or Mohammad in that one. Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism which appropriated their holy texts and prophecies and then twisted them all around to suit it's own purposes... and Islam is an offshoot of both that claims their prophet is just the latest (and thus most relevant) of all prophets that came before in the Jewish and Christian historical traditions, including one Jesus...


Almost all religions are rip-offs of ones that already existed, going way way way way back...