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Sharks, Spiders and Pod Layyers

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Sharks, Spiders and Pod Layyers
Post by SWM   » Sat Feb 07, 2015 5:29 pm

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n7axw wrote:Hi Vince,

Thanks again. I did have my picture wrong. Hyper space then would be everyehere as would the hyper wall. What is often called the hyper wall is just the distance from a planet or a star that it is safe for a ship to enter or leave hyper space. Do I have that straight?

Funny. I've read that passage many times without getting that out of it. Must not have been posing the question, I guess.

Don

I believe you mean "What is often called the hyper limit is just the distance from a planet or star that is safe for a ship to enter or leave hyper space." The hyper limit is never called the hyper wall.
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Re: Sharks, Spiders and Pod Layyers
Post by Vince   » Sat Feb 07, 2015 5:55 pm

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n7axw wrote:Hi Vince,

Thanks again. I did have my picture wrong. Hyper space then would be everyehere as would the hyper wall. What is often called the hyper wall is just the distance from a planet or a star that it is safe for a ship to enter or leave hyper space. Do I have that straight?

Funny. I've read that passage many times without getting that out of it. Must not have been posing the question, I guess.

Don

Terms in the Honorverse:

There is NO hyper wall.

There IS a hyper limit.

The hyper limit is the surface of a sphere centered on a gravitational source (usually a star, but planets--especially large gas giants--also have hyper limits) inside of which you cannot move from normal space to hyperspace at all. If you are in hyperspace in the alpha band, and are also within a region of hyperspace that corresponds to the region inside a normal space hyper limit, and attempt to translate into normal space, one of two things can happen--either you just can't translate from the alpha band of hyperspace to normal space (if you are not too far inside the hyper limit) or else Bad Things happen (if you are too far inside the hyper limit):
Echoes of Honor, Chapter 33 wrote:Now Tourville grinned crookedly at the memory. Perhaps there were some advantages to promotion after all, he mused. But then his thoughts slipped back to the little matter of astrogation, and he leaned back in his chair with a quiet sigh which he hoped concealed the tension coiling tighter in his midsection from any of his juniors.
Karen Lowe was an excellent astrogator, but a hyper voyage this long provided a great deal of scope for minor astrogation errors to produce major results. Overshooting their intended n-space translation point wouldn't be all that terrible . . . unless, of course, they overshot it too badly. A ship which attempted to translate out of hyper inside a star's hyper limit couldn't. As long as it made the attempt within the outer twenty percent of the hyper limit, all that happened was that it couldn't get into n-space. If it made the attempt any further in than that, however, Bad Things happened. Someone had once described the result as using a pulse cannon to fire soft-boiled eggs at a stone wall to see if they would bounce. Lester Tourville rather doubted they would, and even if he was wrong, it was a proposition he had no desire at all to test firsthand.
And that was what made the nervous serpent shift and slither in his belly as the digital display counted down towards the translation, because after a voyage of over a light-century and a half, it would take an error of only one five-millionth of a percent to give them all an egg's-eye view of that stone wall. He trusted Citizen Commander Lowe implicitly . . . but he couldn't quite shut his mind off when it yammered about teeny-tiny errors and misplaced decimal points.
Boldface and underlined text is my emphasis.

Which is why ship captains and astrogators are always worrying about misplaced decimal points.
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Re: Sharks, Spiders and Pod Layyers
Post by kzt   » Sat Feb 07, 2015 6:53 pm

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No, there is a hyper wall. it's the barrier between a hyper band and the one lower and higher. It is refered to by the name of the next higher band, so the alpha wall is the transition between real space and the alpha band. You can see this deep inside HotQ, when White Haven and what's her name are discussin their record setting trip back from Grayson. Oh, here is is.

"That wasn't a trap, Commander. On the other hand, I know perfectly well you didn't cut thirty hours off the old passage record without playing games with your hyper generator."

Alice Truman looked at him for several silent seconds. Lord Alexander—no, he was the Earl of White Haven, since his father's death—was known for a certain willingness to ignore The Book when it got in his way, and there was an almost conspiratorial gleam under the worry in his eyes.

"Well, yes, My Lord," she admitted.

"How high did you take her, Commander?"

"Too high. We bounced off the iota wall a day out of Yeltsin."

Despite himself, Alexander flinched. Dear God, she must have taken out all the interlocks. No ship had ever crossed into the iota bands and survived—no one even knew if a ship could survive there.
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Re: Sharks, Spiders and Pod Layyers
Post by Vince   » Sat Feb 07, 2015 8:32 pm

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kzt wrote:No, there is a hyper wall. it's the barrier between a hyper band and the one lower and higher. It is refered to by the name of the next higher band, so the alpha wall is the transition between real space and the alpha band. You can see this deep inside HotQ, when White Haven and what's her name are discussin their record setting trip back from Grayson. Oh, here is is.

"That wasn't a trap, Commander. On the other hand, I know perfectly well you didn't cut thirty hours off the old passage record without playing games with your hyper generator."

Alice Truman looked at him for several silent seconds. Lord Alexander—no, he was the Earl of White Haven, since his father's death—was known for a certain willingness to ignore The Book when it got in his way, and there was an almost conspiratorial gleam under the worry in his eyes.

"Well, yes, My Lord," she admitted.

"How high did you take her, Commander?"

"Too high. We bounced off the iota wall a day out of Yeltsin."

Despite himself, Alexander flinched. Dear God, she must have taken out all the interlocks. No ship had ever crossed into the iota bands and survived—no one even knew if a ship could survive there.

You are right. Mostly, the hyper wall is almost always referred to by the name of the next higher band. Here is one of the few (only?) example(s) of the actual term "hyper wall" being used (by the author, not a character):
The Honor of the Queen, Chapter 5 wrote:The translation from n-space to hyper was speed critical—at anything above .3 C, dimensional shear would tear a ship apart—but the reverse wasn’t true. Which didn’t make high-speed downward translations pleasant. The energy bleed as the convoy crossed each hyper wall would slow them to a crawl long before they reached the alpha bands, and shear wasn’t a factor as far as hardware was concerned, but the effect on humans was something else again. Naval crews were trained for crash translations, yet there was a limit to what training could do to offset the physical distress and violent nausea, and there was no point in putting anyone—especially her merchant crews—through that.
“Ready to begin translation in forty-one seconds, Ma’am,” Lieutenant Commander DuMorne reported from Astrogation.
“Very well, Mr. DuMorne. The con is yours.”
“Aye, aye, Ma’am. I have the con. Helm, prepare for initial translation on my mark.”
“Ready for translation, aye,” Chief Killian replied, and the helmsman’s hand hovered over the manual override, just in case the astrogator’s computers dropped the ball, while Honor leaned back to watch.
“Mark!” DuMorne said crisply, and the normally inaudible hum of Fearless’s hyper generator became a basso growl.
Honor swallowed against a sudden ripple of nausea as the visual display altered abruptly. The endlessly shifting patterns of hyper space were no longer slow; they flickered, jumping about like poorly executed animation, and her readouts flashed steadily downward as the entire convoy plummeted “down” the hyper space gradient.
Fearless hit the gamma wall, and her Warshawski sails bled transit energy like an azure forest fire. Her velocity dropped almost instantly from .3 C to a mere nine percent of light-speed, and Honor’s stomach heaved as her inner ear rebelled against a speed loss the rest of her senses couldn’t even detect. DuMorne’s calculations had allowed for the energy bleed, and their translation gradient steepened even further as their velocity fell. They hit the beta wall four minutes later, and Honor winced again—less violently this time—as their velocity bled down to less than two percent of light-speed. The visual display was a fierce chaos of heaving light as the convoy fell straight “down” across a “distance” which had no physical existence, and then they hit the alpha bands and flashed across them to the n-space wall like a comet.
Italics are the author's, boldface is my emphasis.

I believe that the convoy was in the delta bands when it began translating down, but I can't be sure. The convoy is mentioned as being in the delta bands 10 days at the end of chapter 4, with no other mention of which hyperspace band it is in between then and when they translated down to normal space.
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Re: Sharks, Spiders and Pod Layyers
Post by n7axw   » Sat Feb 07, 2015 9:38 pm

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I think that ship captain in question was Alice Truman.

Great series of posts guys. I think I got it better now.

Could be that those gravitic spikes reaching out to grab the hyper wall are the secret to detecting the spider? That task force 2 commander was pretty worried about the rd drones. Maybe ghost rider will turn out to be the key...

Don
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Re: Sharks, Spiders and Pod Layyers
Post by wastedfly   » Sat Feb 07, 2015 10:01 pm

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SWM wrote:
kzt wrote:There are drawing I've seen at honorcon showing the relative sizes and locations of the reactor, hyperdrive and the cargo bay. The hyperdrive would have to be more then a million tons to make you lose 20% of cargo capacity, and it is not anything close to that. Unless you think that all SDs have a million ton hypergenerator, which isn't exactly supported by the text. It's big, but not big in relative terms. It's not a very big part of the enormous cavern that is an Honrverse freighter's cargo bay. The one where you could lose a Nimitz class aircraft carrier.

When I've got a multi-billion bank note on the ship, having to add 10 or 30 crew in order to get 50% more revenue is not a big deal. Just to pay the principle on a 5 billion 60 month note I have to generate 83 million profit every month. Even 100 crew added at 100,000 per year each only increases my operating costs by 1% or so of what I need to pay the bank for the ship.

Nobody has suggested that the hyper generator eats up a significant amount of the potential cargo space of a freighter.

Let us suppose that a freighter spends 75% of its time in hyperspace. That reduces your 40% benefit to 30%. Now, suppose you have to increase your crew from 30 to 35 to maintain the larger hyper generator. Then suppose that the military-grade generator costs 10 times as much, costs 5 times as much to maintain, and has to be replaced 5 times as often. Suppose it means an average of 1 or two days a month extra in the docks, maintaining or replacing the generator. Now how much extra is this military-grade equipment costing you? If you are hauling low profit-margin bulk goods which don't give bonuses for fast delivery, is it worth the cost?


Yes. Simple reason. More trips = higher usage rate. Fewer trips = more downtime as there is less guarantee you will have a cargo at all. Given to whomever shows up first. Yea, there will be some that are like clockwork, but few. Shipping is like general contractors. It is gangbusters till a giant lull waiting for the next job to come in. If you have a higher usage rate, the lulls while the same, eat a smaller percentage of the year so you gain $$$. You can always slow down and save wear and tear.
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Re: Sharks, Spiders and Pod Layyers
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sun Feb 08, 2015 12:40 am

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n7axw wrote:I think that ship captain in question was Alice Truman.

Great series of posts guys. I think I got it better now.

Could be that those gravitic spikes reaching out to grab the hyper wall are the secret to detecting the spider? That task force 2 commander was pretty worried about the rd drones. Maybe ghost rider will turn out to be the key...

Don

That's been a fairly common speculation. Now unlike an impeller wedge the spider spikes don't create big visible ripples along the alpha wall (or the next higher hyper wall if you're in hyper). But we've speculated that their "grab" might change how other ripples along that wall propitiate.

And since FTL coominications rely on very high frequency modulated ripples for signal propagation it seems plausible that they might serve as the basis for a sonar-like (active sonar-like) detection system for a spider drive.


Now if there is a interference or reflection it must not be a grossly apparent one because there's a fair bit of FTL comm traffic flying around the Manticore system and we haven't seen anybody wondering about months of weird signal glitches. But that doesn't mean a more subtle signal might not exist to be exploited.
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Re: Sharks, Spiders and Pod Layyers
Post by SWM   » Sun Feb 08, 2015 2:10 pm

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wastedfly wrote:
SWM wrote:Nobody has suggested that the hyper generator eats up a significant amount of the potential cargo space of a freighter.

Let us suppose that a freighter spends 75% of its time in hyperspace. That reduces your 40% benefit to 30%. Now, suppose you have to increase your crew from 30 to 35 to maintain the larger hyper generator. Then suppose that the military-grade generator costs 10 times as much, costs 5 times as much to maintain, and has to be replaced 5 times as often. Suppose it means an average of 1 or two days a month extra in the docks, maintaining or replacing the generator. Now how much extra is this military-grade equipment costing you? If you are hauling low profit-margin bulk goods which don't give bonuses for fast delivery, is it worth the cost?


Yes. Simple reason. More trips = higher usage rate. Fewer trips = more downtime as there is less guarantee you will have a cargo at all. Given to whomever shows up first. Yea, there will be some that are like clockwork, but few. Shipping is like general contractors. It is gangbusters till a giant lull waiting for the next job to come in. If you have a higher usage rate, the lulls while the same, eat a smaller percentage of the year so you gain $$$. You can always slow down and save wear and tear.

I don't think you addressed my point. If the added usage rate amounts to an increase of 30%, but your total costs go up 40 or 50% more on average, is it worth it? In such a situation, it would only be beneficial if the products you are carrying require shorter trip times, or you get significant bonuses for fast delivery.
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Re: Sharks, Spiders and Pod Layyers
Post by wastedfly   » Sun Feb 08, 2015 2:17 pm

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SWM wrote:I don't think you addressed my point. If the added usage rate amounts to an increase of 30%, but your total costs go up 40 or 50% more on average, is it worth it? In such a situation, it would only be beneficial if the products you are carrying require shorter trip times, or you get significant bonuses for fast delivery.


Oh, I understood what you were saying, but you did not understand what I was saying either. I am saying there is another major financial consideration regarding shipping in the Honorverse.

On this world we can communicate via light speed and have pickup and delivery dates set with easy communication. In the Honorverse this is not the case. Shipping practices will revert to the time before the trans oceanic telegraph cables. 1st come, first serve. Those 2nd in line wait or they get nothing at all.
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Re: Sharks, Spiders and Pod Layyers
Post by SWM   » Sun Feb 08, 2015 2:44 pm

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wastedfly wrote:
SWM wrote:I don't think you addressed my point. If the added usage rate amounts to an increase of 30%, but your total costs go up 40 or 50% more on average, is it worth it? In such a situation, it would only be beneficial if the products you are carrying require shorter trip times, or you get significant bonuses for fast delivery.


Oh, I understood what you were saying, but you did not understand what I was saying either. I am saying there is another major financial consideration regarding shipping in the Honorverse.

On this world we can communicate via light speed and have pickup and delivery dates set with easy communication. In the Honorverse this is not the case. Shipping practices will revert to the time before the trans oceanic telegraph cables. 1st come, first serve. Those 2nd in line wait or they get nothing at all.

But most freight in the Honorverse is contracted deliveries. There is no race to get to the destination to beat the competition. And the people paying for delivery aren't going to pay 50% more to have it delivered 30% faster if they don't need it 30% faster.
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