Religion After the Big Reveal (Speculation)

Yes. That is the conversation I was talking about.

thinkstoomuch wrote:I think this is Staynair making a Wager-like statement.

BSRA Year of God 892, July, Chapter VII wrote:“It isn’t a matter of faith. It’s a matter of logic.” Merlin’s eyebrows rose, and Staynair laughed softly. “Of course it is! Either God exists, or He doesn’t, Merlin. Those are really the only two possibilities. If He does exist, as I believe all three of us believe He does, then, ultimately, anything which promotes truth will only tend to demonstrate His existence. And even if that weren’t true, if He exists, then whatever happens will be what He chooses to allow to happen—even if, for some reason beyond my comprehension, what He chooses is to have mankind turn against Him, at least for a time.”

“And if He doesn’t exist?” Merlin asked quietly.

“If He doesn’t, He doesn’t. But if He doesn’t, then none of it will matter, anyway, will it?”

Merlin blinked, and Staynair laughed again.

“I’m quite confident about which of those two possibilities apply, Merlin. But as I believe I’ve already told you, men must have the right to refuse to believe before they truly can believe. And if it turns out I’ve been wrong all my life, what have I really lost? I will have done my best to live as a good man, loving other men and women, serving them as I might, and if there is no God, then at the end of my life I’ll simply close my eyes and sleep. Is there truly anything dreadful, anything to terrify any man, in that possibility? It isn’t that I fear oblivion, Merlin—it’s simply that I hope for and believe in so much more.”

The last few paragraphs before August.

Not sure if it worth anything,
T2M

jgnfld wrote:

gcomeau wrote:I don't think you understand what's being said.

I'm not making the "it's this, rather than this" assumption you assign to me above. I have pointed out that **both of those options* break the Wager. So it doesn't matter if you want to approach it as an infinite pool of god beings or an infinite number of approaches to a single one. The Wager is still invalid.

While I ("you") might agree, I'm pretty sure Staynair--and the textev--would not. That is the point you keep missing.

And the point you keep missing is I'm not making the argument Staynair agrees so that simply does not concern me.

gcomeau wrote:...


And the point you keep missing is I'm not making the argument Staynair agrees so that simply does not concern me.

Then you are not talking about the Safehold series which after all is the subject of this forum.

jgnfld wrote:Then you are not talking about the Safehold series which after all is the subject of this forum.

What the...?


I'm sorry, I must have missed somehow the part where the entire Safehold series was about this one guy named Staynair all alone on his very own planet named "Safehold"... such that if one is not talking about Staynair one is therefore not talking about this series.

gcomeau wrote:

jgnfld wrote:Then you are not talking about the Safehold series which after all is the subject of this forum.

What the...?

I'm sorry, I must have missed somehow the part where the entire Safehold series was about this one guy named Staynair all alone on his very own planet named "Safehold"... such that if one is not talking about Staynair one is therefore not talking about this series.

No, you're intentionally ignoring the fact that there isn't a single character in the entire Safehold universe of humans who doesn't believe in God. (Clyntahn thinks he is God, but he's also a narcissistic sociopath.)

RFC has created a universe in which either God exists, or he doesn't. The God of Safehold is a beneficent being, and there is presumably a better life for those who live in accordance with the Writ in mortality. The two exceptions are Merlin and Nimue, both who are Christian and have no problem with Staynair's position.

So the debate is constrained by the monotheistic religion of Safehold, which means you can't argue out of the theological box that RFC has created and still be discussing the Safehold universe.

McGuiness wrote: quote="gcomeau" quote="jgnfld"Then you are not talking about the Safehold series which after all is the subject of this forum. /quote

What the...?

I'm sorry, I must have missed somehow the part where the entire Safehold series was about this one guy named Staynair all alone on his very own planet named "Safehold"... such that if one is not talking about Staynair one is therefore not talking about this series. /quote
No, you're intentionally ignoring the fact that there isn't a single character in the entire Safehold universe of humans who doesn't believe in God. (Clyntahn thinks he is God, but he's also a narcissistic sociopath.)

RFC has created a universe in which either God exists, or he doesn't. The God of Safehold is a beneficent being, and there is presumably a better life for those who live in accordance with the Writ in mortality. The two exceptions are Merlin and Nimue, both who are Christian and have no problem with Staynair's position.

So the debate is constrained by the monotheistic religion of Safehold, which means you can't argue out of the theological box that RFC has created and still be discussing the Safehold universe.

That would depend on whether or not the religious books of other religions are released, in order that each person may find his own way to God.

jgnfld wrote:

gcomeau wrote:...


And the point you keep missing is I'm not making the argument Staynair agrees so that simply does not concern me.

Then you are not talking about the Safehold series which after all is the subject of this forum.

Guys, please remember how this started. Someone asked what would happen to religion. Gcomeau stated that in a rational world, atheism would result, but in a real human world, there would be a proliferation of religions. Other people asked what he meant by the first statement (which Gcomeau was clearly not suggesting would happen on Safehold), and he answered. Since then, he has simply been defending himself from attacks on that answer.

Gccomeau was asked a question, and he answered it. If other people then argue against his answer, it is not Gcomeau's fault that the conversation has drifted. At no point has he suggested that this discussion of rationality and atheism pertains to Safehold--it is other people who have imputed it to him.

May I suggest that we drop the subject and get on with something else?

My personal beliefs are actually probably not that far from your own though I haven't the, well, blind faith it takes to be a total atheist as opposed to hard agnostic.

However, since essentially everyone is a believer--even Nimue/Merlin as established under the verifier--and since the relation between the putative Safehold God and Safeholdians is so central to the whole plot, David is clearly adding some important thematic elements to the series involving God/not-God <--> various communications/revelations/personal beliefs and actions/even instincts <--> Man.

If we are to discuss these religious elements--and they are central to the series--we really need to stay inside the Safehold universe in my view. David will go with these where he wills inside his universe. I'm curious to watch.

gcomeau wrote:

jgnfld wrote:Then you are not talking about the Safehold series which after all is the subject of this forum.

What the...?


I'm sorry, I must have missed somehow the part where the entire Safehold series was about this one guy named Staynair all alone on his very own planet named "Safehold"... such that if one is not talking about Staynair one is therefore not talking about this series.

McGuiness wrote:

gcomeau wrote:What the...?

I'm sorry, I must have missed somehow the part where the entire Safehold series was about this one guy named Staynair all alone on his very own planet named "Safehold"... such that if one is not talking about Staynair one is therefore not talking about this series.

No, you're intentionally ignoring the fact that there isn't a single character in the entire Safehold universe of humans who doesn't believe in God. (Clyntahn thinks he is God, but he's also a narcissistic sociopath.)

RFC has created a universe in which either God exists, or he doesn't. The God of Safehold is a beneficent being, and there is presumably a better life for those who live in accordance with the Writ in mortality. The two exceptions are Merlin and Nimue, both who are Christian and have no problem with Staynair's position.

So the debate is constrained by the monotheistic religion of Safehold, which means you can't argue out of the theological box that RFC has created and still be discussing the Safehold universe.

No, RFC has not created such a universe, and no the debate is not constrained to those conditions. In case you forgot the universe RFC created includes all the history of earth and it's many varied religions. The population of Safehold are just, for the most part, currently not in possession of that historical information.

However, Read The OP. We are asking what happens AFTER THE REVEAL. The reveal involving telling all those millions of people real actual history. From earth.

So at that point we are not only no longer limited to people only knowing about the existence of one religion, but having been point blank told that that one religion they have known about all this time was a complete fabrication.

jgnfld wrote:My personal beliefs are actually probably not that far from your own though I haven't the, well, blind faith it takes to be a total atheist as opposed to hard agnostic.

Ugh... you cannot be a agnostic as an alternative to being an atheist or a theist. You can only be an agnostic *in addition to* being an atheist or a theist. Atheism and theism describe a binary solution set. You possess a belief that a deity exists, or you don't. The end.

Agnosticism addresses a completely different question about the nature of deity and whether certain knowledge of such an entity (whether it exists or not) is theoretically possible to acquire. (Regardless of how horrifically abused that term has come to be among modern denizens of the interwebs).



I am an atheist. I do not possess any belief in the existence of a deity.



I am also an agnostic. I recognize that the manner in which such deities are defined... the characteristics ascribed to them... would make it literally impossible to ever acquire certain knowledge about whether they existed or not. The proposition that a deity exists comprises an un-falsifiable hypothesis. (Which, in and of itself, is a reason to reject the proposition for those who understand the implications of un-falsifiable hypotheses. But most people don't...)

Let's just say I think you are reading a different series of books written by an author with a different publically-stated personal mindset than I am and leave it at that.

gcomeau wrote:

McGuiness wrote:

gcomeau"What the...?

I'm sorry, I must have missed somehow the part where the entire Safehold series was about this one guy named Staynair all alone on his very own planet named "Safehold"... such that if one is not talking about Staynair one is therefore not talking about this series.

No, you're intentionally ignoring the fact that there isn't a single character in the entire Safehold universe of humans who doesn't believe in God. (Clyntahn thinks he is God, but he's also a narcissistic sociopath.)

RFC has created a universe in which either God exists, or he doesn't. The God of Safehold is a beneficent being, and there is presumably a better life for those who live in accordance with the Writ in mortality. The two exceptions are Merlin and Nimue, both who are Christian and have no problem with Staynair's position.

So the debate is constrained by the monotheistic religion of Safehold, which means you can't argue out of the theological box that RFC has created and still be discussing the Safehold universe.[/quote

No, RFC has not created such a universe, and no the debate is not constrained to those conditions. In case you forgot the universe RFC created includes all the history of earth and it's many varied religions. The population of Safehold are just, for the most part, currently not in possession of that historical information.

However, Read The OP. We are asking what happens AFTER THE REVEAL. The reveal involving telling all those millions of people real actual history. From earth.

So at that point we are not only no longer limited to people only knowing about the existence of one religion, but having been point blank told that that one religion they have known about all this time was a complete fabrication.



[quote="jgnfld wrote:My personal beliefs are actually probably not that far from your own though I haven't the, well, blind faith it takes to be a total atheist as opposed to hard agnostic.

Ugh... you cannot be a agnostic as an alternative to being an atheist or a theist. You can only be an agnostic *in addition to* being an atheist or a theist. Atheism and theism describe a binary solution set. You possess a belief that a deity exists, or you don't. The end.

Agnosticism addresses a completely different question about the nature of deity and whether certain knowledge of such an entity (whether it exists or not) is theoretically possible to acquire. (Regardless of how horrifically abused that term has come to be among modern denizens of the interwebs).



I am an atheist. I do not possess any belief in the existence of a deity.



I am also an agnostic. I recognize that the manner in which such deities are defined... the characteristics ascribed to them... would make it literally impossible to ever acquire certain knowledge about whether they existed or not. The proposition that a deity exists comprises an un-falsifiable hypothesis. (Which, in and of itself, is a reason to reject the proposition for those who understand the implications of un-falsifiable hypotheses. But most people don't...)[/quote]