A single SD-based Space Station

kzt wrote:You have the crews to man two cycles of at least 100 SD(P)s and escorts, with no ships to go to. One would have been in advanced training, the other would have been in early training. Plus the crews recruited after the attack.

You are talking about hundreds of thousands of crewmen and officers that the RMN has pretty much have nothing ship related for them to do for years. I have no idea what David plans for this.

The GSN has similar issues, though I'm not sure how big their construction pipeline was.

Jeroswen wrote:Ok I don't know if its the head cold or the meds I am on but I think I need to kick this dead horse as well. I'll probably regret this when I am well again .

1. Manticore has more systems to protect than it has ships especially if it has to go on the offensive.

2. Those crappy SD's are the state of the art for anyone the Grand Alliance will be fighting. Plus the ones used in Manticore II have longer range missiles than is the galactic norm.

3. Manticore and Grayson will have no spare production for anything for at least two years as they rebuild.

4. Lots of systems will be coming over to the Grand Alliance as allies or neutral in their favor and will be requesting protection.

5. It will take at least a couple of years for the rest of the galaxy to begin to "catch up" to the Grand Alliance tech and then it has to design and build the ships to take advantage of that tech. So the SD's would work as a stop gap until better more modern ships are available from the Grand Alliance.

6. Missile colliers and fleet repair ships were also captured which takes care of supply and maintenance for the short term.

You can't have them they are crap. You can't get anything that isn't crap for probably 4 years but thats ok. If you get attacked we should be able to liberate you within a week of your capture.

kzt wrote:You have the crews to man two cycles of at least 100 SD(P)s and escorts, with no ships to go to. One would have been in advanced training, the other would have been in early training. Plus the crews recruited after the attack.

You are talking about hundreds of thousands of crewmen and officers that the RMN has pretty much have nothing ship related for them to do for years. I have no idea what David plans for this.

The GSN has similar issues, though I'm not sure how big their construction pipeline was.

crewdude48 wrote:Even if the RMN is desperate for some kind of ship, and desperate for some place to stick its new people, there are still better things they could do than man the SLN ships. Haven is still pumping out their top of the line ships as fast as they can, and if you are going to train your spacers on another nations equipment, it makes infinitely more sense to use an ally's rather than an enemy's, and Haven ships are much more combat capable than the SLN ships.

I have said it before and I will say it again. The best use for the SLN ships is to park one close to the junction, and program the smart paint to spell out "FOR SALE. CHEEP. IF INTERESTED CALL LIZ."

biochem wrote:You could always sell them to "allies" that you don't want to ever have the new modern ships, but who may want something better than what they have now. The Honorverse equivalent of Pakistan for example.

SharkHunter wrote:

kzt wrote:You have the crews to man two cycles of at least 100 SD(P)s and escorts, with no ships to go to. One would have been in advanced training, the other would have been in early training. Plus the crews recruited after the attack.

You are talking about hundreds of thousands of crewmen and officers that the RMN has pretty much have nothing ship related for them to do for years. I have no idea what David plans for this.

The GSN has similar issues, though I'm not sure how big their construction pipeline was.

I think what is likely in short supply are the officers and high ranking engineering folks that got thinned by the Battle of Manticore and further thinned by however many were on any of the destroyed stations. The best of the best of those not in Home Fleet(s) or Beowulf space are now likely reconstituting Third Fleet, holding down small groups out in Laccoon II territory, and a second tier of good officers with Ninth Fleet out in Silesia. While the Republic of Haven may not be the uber-enemy any more, it's highly unlikely that the rest of the galaxy will trust them for at least a few years.

I think the only way to staff those Solarian ships for any form of protective independent usage is to recall folks from the RMMC that were honorably discharged from Her Majestie's Navy that are doing not much due to Laccoon II, and are willing to put on the uniform again. I'd love to see some of Honor's original but likely retired crewmates back in uniform for some further adventures. I'd imagine that then Commander(s) Layson (LtCom) Hirake from War Maiden, or Taylor Nairobi & Aloysius O'Neal from Hawkwing, etc. who I would have to think could do a bang up job at least as good as any SLN captain, if they had good engineers from their own ships and an adequate staff of "training minded" senior crewman to get the ball rolling out in the Verge/small systems. Keep in mind they'd be getting the cream of the crop from those planets in terms of smart young people, without the inclusion of of bottom-feeders like Honor's group had to deal with aboard HMAMC-Wayfarer.

Hutch wrote:A noble effort to scale the cliffs (see my previous post above) Jeroswen, but acouple of points before the rest come along and start shooting grasers at it....

Jeroswen wrote: Ok I don't know if its the head cold or the meds I am on but I think I need to kick this dead horse as well. I'll probably regret this when I am well again .

Hope you get to feeling better....my annual 24-hour flu bug has yet to make an apparance this winter.

*SNIP*

However here are the pro's to using them:
1. Manticore has more systems to protect than it has ships especially if it has to go on the offensive.
2. Those crappy SD's are the state of the art for anyone the Grand Alliance will be fighting. Plus the ones used in Manticore II have longer range missiles than is the galactic norm.
3. Manticore and Grayson will have no spare production for anything for at least two years as they rebuild.
4. Lots of systems will be coming over to the Grand Alliance as allies or neutral in their favor and will be requesting protection.
5. It will take at least a couple of years for the rest of the galaxy to begin to "catch up" to the Grand Alliance tech and then it has to design and build the ships to take advantage of that tech. So the SD's would work as a stop gap until better more modern ships are available from the Grand Alliance.
6. Missile colliers and fleet repair ships were also captured which takes care of supply and maintenance for the short term.

Hard to argue the facts in 1-3 and 6, and your suppositions for 4 and 5 are valid, IMHO. I would note that the RH facilities for building ships is intact and will be active. But yeah, if the SEM and RH were streched in their war in defending systems/mounting attacks, taking on a polity about 10 times their size just in member planets (and even more lopsided in population and economies), every hull is going to be needed in multiple places.

Here are the cons as summarized from above:
1. They are resource hogs both in people and in fuel.
2. They are hopelessly out of date

Add to that getting new ammunition once they are shot dry is going to be a problem--and the colliers supplies will last only so long.

Now, imagine you are the governor of a system in Talbot or Silesia. Your planet is small and has 500 million people on it. There is a large Manti task force within a day or two hyper from your location. I can't find any textev that states that pods were placed in all of Talbot's systems. So your defenses are made up of old ships that are obsolete and maybe one newer destroyer or courier boat to go get help. You know when the league comes crashing down soon its going to get ugly. Piracy will be on the rise and systems will start waring with each other.

Now if I was this governor I would expand the military, a wealthy country could get away with a military 5% of its total size in population. Since your not so wealthy 1% would probably be pushing it. So lets settle on 3 million in the military. I would ask the Grand Alliance for the following from the ships they have captured.

1 fast collier 50?
1 fleet repair ship 500?
2 SD's 5,000 each
2 battle cruisers 2,000 each
4 cruisers of any type 1,000 each
8 destroyers 200 each

I would note that both Silesia (the part we're concerned about) and Talbott Sector are part of the SEM and the responsibility of the SEM to protect, not the individual governors of those systems. And we know the Talbott Sector is getting several squadrons of LAC's assigned, which should handle any pirates and give any Sollies smaller than a SD a Very Bad Day.


But the 'independent' Verge and even Shell systems....

Most of the figures are general if someone has more firm numbers then please let me know. My head is too foggy atm to find them. But the total necessary personel to man these ships is roughly 20,150. If this buys me some sleep for 3 or 4 years until better is available then yes, I'll go through a year of growing pains to put these ships in action. If I get them for free what do I care? As dangerous as the universe is going to get I will need a navy to protect my own backyard. These will allow me to train up future spacers and provide security in the interim. The only people with equipment that can hurt me are allied with me. Its not like I can get better ships from anywhere else for 3 or 4 years, and when I do I need personal I can put onboard.

I would also note that your numbers do not include all the support and logistics/maintenance/training staff you'll need for a fleet that size. A planet that up to now has had maybe a couple of DD's and some LAC's is going to be hard-pressed to fill those numbers...

For the Grand Alliance to refuse a request for these ships would be to say the following:

You can't have them they are crap. You can't get anything that isn't crap for probably 4 years but thats ok. If you get attacked we should be able to liberate you within a week of your capture.

I still don't think I agree with you, but I will admit that you state your position well, especially with a foggy brain (heck, that has been my status for the past 15 years...)