Do recall though that there´s a difference between written, and not edited ever since.
Many/most of those you mention probably does not exist in original form, but only in the edited versions from later.
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Re: GOD EXISTS | |
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by bhasseler » Fri Jan 30, 2015 1:00 am | |
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So, since the copies we have from the 200s are real close to what we have today, you're positing editing between composition (between, say AD 44-96) and the 200s? With no actual examples of manuscripts before the edits? Does it really make sense that far more changes would happen in 150 years than in 1800 years?
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Re: GOD EXISTS | |
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by fallsfromtrees » Fri Jan 30, 2015 1:19 am | |
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There is considerable evidence that the gospels of Mark, Mathew and Luke are all based on an earlier work typically called Q (for Quelle - a German for source). We have never found a copy of Q. Given the differences in the three gospels, we can be sure that there was a bunch of changes being made. One of the biggest arguments that significant changes were being made tot he early church documents comes from one of the last (if not the last) to be written - Revelation. There is a dire threat in there warning anyone against making any changes to the document - one that would not have to be made unless the author didn't want the same thing happening to his work. ========================
The only problem with quotes on the internet is that you can't authenticate them -- Abraham Lincoln |
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Re: GOD EXISTS | |
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by DDHvi » Fri Jan 30, 2015 1:34 pm | |
DDHvi
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There is a parchment fragment of Matthew found in Egypt that has been dated at 70AD. More important, compare with what we have in copies of other ancient works. With Homer's works, the estimate is the earliest copies are about 5 centuries later, but people don't state we miss anything important. Julius Caesar's earliest copies about the wars in Gaul are estimated at a millenium later, and there are less than a dozen known, yet people don't disparage them. There have not been found early COPIES of the translations. This means we have a maximum date, not a known one. Many New Testament writers claimed to be witnesses. If this is not true, then the whole thing is a lie. However, why should we accept someone's theories about dating instead of the writer's statement, when the daters refuse to use the SAME methods they use for other works from antiquity? http://townhall.com/columnists/johnhawk ... t-n1947213
A hypocrite does not confess his sin, so the article title is not correct. Some good points are made. Douglas Hvistendahl
Retired technical nerd ddhviste@drtel.net Dumb mistakes are very irritating. Smart mistakes go on forever Unless you test your assumptions! |
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Re: GOD EXISTS | |
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by DDHvi » Fri Jan 30, 2015 1:38 pm | |
DDHvi
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Please list at least a few of those huge disconnects you know. Note there is a big difference between having a disconnect from a theory, however accepted it is, and facts. Douglas Hvistendahl
Retired technical nerd ddhviste@drtel.net Dumb mistakes are very irritating. Smart mistakes go on forever Unless you test your assumptions! |
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Re: GOD EXISTS | |
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by fallsfromtrees » Fri Jan 30, 2015 3:37 pm | |
fallsfromtrees
Posts: 1960
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No one is claiming that Homer's work nor Caesar's was divinely inspired - and using the work to justify their own position (Well Big Julie might have - the caesars attempted to assume godhood themselves). Undoubtedly there has in fact stuff been lost from all of these works. Irrelevant. What is relevant is that the New Testament is claimed to be divinely inspired and used to justify such crimes against humanity as slavery, and the subjugation of women. There are minor fragments of some of the documents, but only fragments. For the vast majority of the New Testament there are only copies of copies of copies. And let's not even talk about the lack of sources for the Old Testament - the best evidence we have is that none of it was actually written down until the reign of Solomon. ========================
The only problem with quotes on the internet is that you can't authenticate them -- Abraham Lincoln |
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To Answer The First Question ... | |
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by HB of CJ » Sat Jan 31, 2015 9:51 pm | |
HB of CJ
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To answer the first question ... NO, God does not enter into or relate in my life. I am a Rational Agnostic. I do not know one way or the other. I need scientific evidence since for me it must be more than a matter of faith. It must but of fact. Just me. No disrespect intended or implied. HB of CJ (old coot) Cm.
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Re: GOD EXISTS | |
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by gcomeau » Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:01 pm | |
gcomeau
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Because there isn't any need to. Nobody is running around claiming the Illiad is an historically accurate account of events. I have yet to encounter anyone arguing that the writings of Homer are historical evidence of the existence of Charybdis the sea monster for example. If people want the bible given the same critical leeway then they only get to take it as seriously as well. As fictional mythology loosely based on real events but with a whole lot of clearly ridiculous supernatural events thrown in to make things more interesting.
Extraordinary claims.... extraordinary evidence... Do any of those writings contain the claim that Caesar perhaps flew his army to Gaul to in magic flying war chariots to smite the Gaul's with lightnings? Or just the rather mundane claim that a well known powerful empire conducted military operations in an area of the world they are known from many many many other sources to have conducted military operations in? If the former was the case, you could expect disparagement. For the latter? What would be the point? Last edited by gcomeau on Sun Jun 07, 2015 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: GOD EXISTS | |
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by fallsfromtrees » Fri Feb 06, 2015 12:15 am | |
fallsfromtrees
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Please be careful when adjusting quotes. Those were not my postings. Thank you. ========================
The only problem with quotes on the internet is that you can't authenticate them -- Abraham Lincoln |
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Re: GOD EXISTS | |
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by biochem » Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:47 pm | |
biochem
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The misuse of God or in this case misinterpretation of his word, to justify an individual's personal biases, desires etc is a very human failing. They do it with every other foundational document, the constitution for example. Therefore I would be a lot more surprised if people did NOT do this. |
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Re: GOD EXISTS | |
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by DDHvi » Sun Feb 08, 2015 12:26 am | |
DDHvi
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Historically, the first known national elimination of slavery was from the work of William Wilberforce's group in Great Britain. If you think the scriptures led to oppression of women, take a close look at how they were treated by the Romans, etc. of that day. Or the Islamists of today. The question is not about whether some have distorted the meanings, but about whether the evidence for authenticity is stronger than for other ancient documents. As for evidence against divine inspiration, many have claimed it exists. However, no one have been able to show me a specific example of that. Places where it disagrees with some current theories, yes, but not where they can show it disagrees with facts. Often, they misquote the text so badly one wonders if they have even read it. Our pastor, last Sunday, told us how he was caught in addiction (meth, and others), but had a praying mother. In prison, after he trusted Jesus, he told others he would never take dope again. They laughed, as they had heard that from too many others. Douglas Hvistendahl
Retired technical nerd ddhviste@drtel.net Dumb mistakes are very irritating. Smart mistakes go on forever Unless you test your assumptions! |
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