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Hot Air and the start of Flight

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Re: Hot Air and the start of Flight
Post by Weird Harold   » Thu Jan 29, 2015 3:32 pm

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anwi wrote:If they have, how to produce it in quantities without electricity?


Civil War observation balloons used Hydrogen generators at the launch site that used iron filings and steam, IIRC, to generate the hydrogen. It was simply released to the air when the balloon descended and a new fill generated for the next launch.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: Hot Air and the start of Flight
Post by Dilandu   » Thu Jan 29, 2015 4:02 pm

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anwi wrote:Well, I haven't read any convincing arguments as to why the EoC should go down that route now or in the near future.


There was a lot of them.

For a start, they probably still haven't officially discovered hydrogen. If they have, how to produce it in quantities without electricity?


Simple chemistry. Sulfuric acid on iron filling.


If you could do the latter, how to store it without large losses? Transport to the frontlines is an issue as well.


Frontline gas generators, as in US Civil War in 1860th

Finally, the Zeppelin or blimp type vessels discussed so far require quite some effort, although they might be viable with Safehold materials.


Their cost would be mo more than 1/20-1/10 of KH's
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Re: Hot Air and the start of Flight
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Fri Jan 30, 2015 12:25 am

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n7axw wrote:
fallsfromtrees wrote:The question that still hasn't been answered is how you get around Clyntahn declaring it anathema, and being able to actually accuse the EoC of engaging in demonic activities. Yes, the EoC side ignores it, but you are fighting for the uncommitted hearts ad minds, and this would give Clyntahn a great deal of veracity, and therefore be a loser in the long run.

One way around this is to do the research, and then arrange for the concepts of a very crude hot air balloon it to be leaked to Clyntahn, with a note that the EoC has decided it would violate the Proscriptions. Clyntahn now has what he thinks will be a major advantage for the battlefield, approves the concept, and then discovers that the EoC has more and better, as well as working AA guns. as SF would say "Oops".


The same can be said for steam, Merlin's pistols, or for that matter any innovation that Charis has introduced. Clyntahn is always going to take the view that Charis is violating the proscriptions.

The counter question is the if God is unhappy about that, why doesn't the Rakurai smite the heretics?

Don

We haven't heard that he is going to declare the steam engine as violating the Proscriptions (not that I saying he won't), but if he thought he as getting a jump on the heretics, he'd be all over it.
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Re: Hot Air and the start of Flight
Post by 6L6   » Fri Jan 30, 2015 12:58 am

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I don't think that there is anything that Clyntahn is prepared to declare would violate the proscriptions even though he would like to because he is afraid of loosing the war. He is smart enough to understand that things are not going his way.
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Re: Hot Air and the start of Flight
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Fri Jan 30, 2015 1:08 am

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6L6 wrote:I don't think that there is anything that Clyntahn is prepared to declare would violate the proscriptions even though he would like to because he is afraid of loosing the war. He is smart enough to understand that things are not going his way.

Actually, I don't think he has realized that he is losing the war, just that there have been a few setbacks. At this point I think he is thinking that there has been a minor setback, but as soon as the Harchongese arrive, everything will be back on track, and the Siddarmark problem will be solved.
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Re: Hot Air and the start of Flight
Post by n7axw   » Fri Jan 30, 2015 6:53 am

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fallsfromtrees wrote:
6L6 wrote:I don't think that there is anything that Clyntahn is prepared to declare would violate the proscriptions even though he would like to because he is afraid of loosing the war. He is smart enough to understand that things are not going his way.

Actually, I don't think he has realized that he is losing the war, just that there have been a few setbacks. At this point I think he is thinking that there has been a minor setback, but as soon as the Harchongese arrive, everything will be back on track, and the Siddarmark problem will be solved.


It is going to be interesting to see how the Harchonese are utilized. I hope our speculations about the allies disposing of the other COGA armies before the Harchonese get into motion are correct. It could look like gnats gnawing on an elaphant fow a while.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Hot Air and the start of Flight
Post by 6L6   » Sat Jan 31, 2015 10:19 am

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HI fallsfromtrees, In HOW FIRM A FOUNDATION paperback edition page 83 Weber writes "Odd how the line between the acceptable and the anathematized started blurring as soon as Clyntahn realized the kingdom he'd wanted to murder might actually have a chance to win."
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Re: Hot Air and the start of Flight
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Sat Jan 31, 2015 4:15 pm

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6L6 wrote:HI fallsfromtrees, In HOW FIRM A FOUNDATION paperback edition page 83 Weber writes "Odd how the line between the acceptable and the anathematized started blurring as soon as Clyntahn realized the kingdom he'd wanted to murder might actually have a chance to win."

In the greater context, Clyntahn is only willing to concede that Charis might win if he didn't adopt the innovations of the heretics. I am not convinced that he believes that the war is lost even though the CoGA has adopted those innovations.
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Re: Hot Air and the start of Flight
Post by AirTech   » Sun Feb 01, 2015 10:05 pm

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Dilandu wrote:
anwi wrote:Well, I haven't read any convincing arguments as to why the EoC should go down that route now or in the near future.


There was a lot of them.

For a start, they probably still haven't officially discovered hydrogen. If they have, how to produce it in quantities without electricity?


Simple chemistry. Sulfuric acid on iron filling.


If you could do the latter, how to store it without large losses? Transport to the frontlines is an issue as well.


Frontline gas generators, as in US Civil War in 1860th

Finally, the Zeppelin or blimp type vessels discussed so far require quite some effort, although they might be viable with Safehold materials.


Their cost would be mo more than 1/20-1/10 of KH's


You could of course skip the lot and start making Piper Cubs (the full drawing sets are available on the internet). (Next question is do you build E-2's, J-3's, L-4's, L-14's, L-18's, L-21's, U-7's, PA-11's,PA-18's or PA-19's (or TG-8's, or Cubby's) to start with....) A Cub is much harder to hit than a balloon and can carry serious teeth (3" rockets are nothing to laugh at).
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Re: Hot Air and the start of Flight
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Sun Feb 01, 2015 11:33 pm

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anwi wrote:Well, I haven't read any convincing arguments as to why the EoC should go down that route now or in the near future.
Dilandu wrote:There was a lot of them.

anwi wrote:For a start, they probably still haven't officially discovered hydrogen. If they have, how to produce it in quantities without electricity?

Dilandu wrote:Simple chemistry. Sulfuric acid on iron filling.

anwi wrote:If you could do the latter, how to store it without large losses? Transport to the frontlines is an issue as well.

Dilandu wrote:Frontline gas generators, as in US Civil War in 1860th
anwi wrote:Finally, the Zeppelin or blimp type vessels discussed so far require quite some effort, although they might be viable with Safehold materials.

Dilandu wrote:Their cost would be mo more than 1/20-1/10 of KH's

AirTech wrote:You could of course skip the lot and start making Piper Cubs (the full drawing sets are available on the internet). (Next question is do you build E-2's, J-3's, L-4's, L-14's, L-18's, L-21's, U-7's, PA-11's,PA-18's or PA-19's (or TG-8's, or Cubby's) to start with....) A Cub is much harder to hit than a balloon and can carry serious teeth (3" rockets are nothing to laugh at).

And you are going to power it how?
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The only problem with quotes on the internet is that you can't authenticate them -- Abraham Lincoln
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