Hot Air and the start of Flight

n7axw wrote:

packhunter wrote:I'm reminded of a conversation Earl Hanth had while observing the enemy from atop his observation tower. paraphrased: Any good sailor equates observation hight with military advantage.

I believe a hot air balloon used for forward edge of battle observation and artillery Spotting/Coordination would be very usefull. And if used tethered/towed from ships could greatly increase fleets or convoys scouting capabilities.

Hot air balloons as a first step are well within the tecnical capabilities of the charisian manufactoring industry. Additionally it sounds like Sea Dragon Oil which is already mass produced would be a succesful fuel source.

And once something so incredably simple as a hot air balloon is utilized more complex systems could quickly follow.

Actually, far enough behind the front lines to be out of reach of enemy fire would be better. You would still want it close enough to be able to conduct observation, but far enough back not to be a target.

I remember from one of Eric's books in the 1632 series in "Russian Games" (I think) that an observation balloon did get shot down. I know this isn't the Safehold universe, but the concern still seems valid.

Don

I believe the biggest limitation for a tethered balloon is the size of the cable spool. Once the balloon is over ~1000ft in elevation I think it is out of the range of small arms and cannons (Howitzers and mortars are a different issue) untill the development of nitrate powders. I believe even here on earth balloons got to that elevation before 1870, and Safehold has better materials and could get a little advice from Owl. A balloon will be inconveniently slow to set up and vulnerable to weather. On campaign it will require two fairly large wagons, one for the balloon, a second for the 1500-2000(+?) Feet of heavy rope used for the tether.

In use it would be much like the observation towers, signals for prearranged situations, send down written messages (use message tubes hooked to a carabiner or clevis so they go to those sitting at the rope wagon) for those that you do not have a prearranged signal.

A thousand feet is 333 1/3 yards. Three hundred yards was pretty much expected range for even the earlier rifles. Those sniper rifles being used in Corisande, as I recall, were targeting at about 1000 yards. Cannon range was much greater... as a for instance, Seamont and his henchmen were getting accurate targeting with rifled cannon on a stationary target up to 8000 yards. I would imagine that shooting the thing up in the air and fighting gravity would shorten that up some. But still... I think your 1000 feet is way short of being out of range.

Don

n7axw wrote:A thousand feet is 333 1/3 yards. Three hundred yards was pretty much expected range for even the earlier rifles. Those sniper rifles being used in Corisande, as I recall, were targeting at about 1000 yards. Cannon range was much greater... as a for instance, Seamont and his henchmen were getting accurate targeting with rifled cannon on a stationary target up to 8000 yards. I would imagine that shooting the thing up in the air and fighting gravity would shorten that up some. But still... I think your 1000 feet is way short of being out of range.

Don

I am sure I am short as far as rifles are concerned, cannons as such would have a problem that is more to do with carriage (and the maximum elevation allowed) than with range. Charisian angle guns would easily have the range, and their carriage would allow them to target something floating above the battlefield.

The question that still hasn't been answered is how you get around Clyntahn declaring it anathema, and being able to actually accuse the EoC of engaging in demonic activities. Yes, the EoC side ignores it, but you are fighting for the uncommitted hearts ad minds, and this would give Clyntahn a great deal of veracity, and therefore be a loser in the long run.

One way around this is to do the research, and then arrange for the concepts of a very crude hot air balloon it to be leaked to Clyntahn, with a note that the EoC has decided it would violate the Proscriptions. Clyntahn now has what he thinks will be a major advantage for the battlefield, approves the concept, and then discovers that the EoC has more and better, as well as working AA guns. as SF would say "Oops".

Castenea wrote:[I am sure I am short as far as rifles are concerned, cannons as such would have a problem that is more to do with carriage (and the maximum elevation allowed) than with range. Charisian angle guns would easily have the range, and their carriage would allow them to target something floating above the battlefield.

Do you really think that the howitzer with simple burning or impact fuse is reliable as AA weapon? The dispersion would be too far. During the american civil war, both sides used baloons, and not very many of them was destroyed by enemy fire. And, as i recall, this rule held for later local conflicts up until World War I.

Castenea wrote:

n7axw wrote:A thousand feet is 333 1/3 yards. Three hundred yards was pretty much expected range for even the earlier rifles. Those sniper rifles being used in Corisande, as I recall, were targeting at about 1000 yards. Cannon range was much greater... as a for instance, Seamont and his henchmen were getting accurate targeting with rifled cannon on a stationary target up to 8000 yards. I would imagine that shooting the thing up in the air and fighting gravity would shorten that up some. But still... I think your 1000 feet is way short of being out of range.

Don

I am sure I am short as far as rifles are concerned, cannons as such would have a problem that is more to do with carriage (and the maximum elevation allowed) than with range. Charisian angle guns would easily have the range, and their carriage would allow them to target something floating above the battlefield.

Not straight up. A balloon is a surprisingly hard target to shoot down. I would also expect them to be located a mile or so behind the front line (to protect the support infrastructure like the winch).

n7axw wrote:A thousand feet is 333 1/3 yards. Three hundred yards was pretty much expected range for even the earlier rifles. Those sniper rifles being used in Corisande, as I recall, were targeting at about 1000 yards. Cannon range was much greater... as a for instance, Seamont and his henchmen were getting accurate targeting with rifled cannon on a stationary target up to 8000 yards. I would imagine that shooting the thing up in the air and fighting gravity would shorten that up some. But still... I think your 1000 feet is way short of being out of range.

Don

Castenea wrote:I am sure I am short as far as rifles are concerned, cannons as such would have a problem that is more to do with carriage (and the maximum elevation allowed) than with range. Charisian angle guns would easily have the range, and their carriage would allow them to target something floating above the battlefield.

AirTech wrote:
Not straight up. A balloon is a surprisingly hard target to shoot down. I would also expect them to be located a mile or so behind the front line (to protect the support infrastructure like the winch).

A mile back and 1000 ft up makes the distance to the balloon from the front almost 1800 yds, well out of the reach of rifle fire.

fallsfromtrees wrote:The question that still hasn't been answered is how you get around Clyntahn declaring it anathema, and being able to actually accuse the EoC of engaging in demonic activities. Yes, the EoC side ignores it, but you are fighting for the uncommitted hearts ad minds, and this would give Clyntahn a great deal of veracity, and therefore be a loser in the long run.

One way around this is to do the research, and then arrange for the concepts of a very crude hot air balloon it to be leaked to Clyntahn, with a note that the EoC has decided it would violate the Proscriptions. Clyntahn now has what he thinks will be a major advantage for the battlefield, approves the concept, and then discovers that the EoC has more and better, as well as working AA guns. as SF would say "Oops".

The same can be said for steam, Merlin's pistols, or for that matter any innovation that Charis has introduced. Clyntahn is always going to take the view that Charis is violating the proscriptions.

The counter question is the if God is unhappy about that, why doesn't the Rakurai smite the heretics?

Don

fallsfromtrees wrote:
A mile back and 1000 ft up makes the distance to the balloon from the front almost 1800 yds, well out of the reach of rifle fire.

Yep. That was why I was proposing that the observation be done from somewhat behind the lines rather than directly overhead.

Don

Dilandu wrote:
Generally speaking, with the 1860-th style materials, we could build a 3200 cubic meters hydrogen-filled blimp, that would be able to carry about 500 kg of fuel and about 457 kg of crew, ammunition and other supplies. She would be able to go at 25-30 km/h, and stay airborne for 3-4 hours.

Well, I haven't read any convincing arguments as to why the EoC should go down that route now or in the near future.
For a start, they probably still haven't officially discovered hydrogen. If they have, how to produce it in quantities without electricity?
If you could do the latter, how to store it without large losses? Transport to the frontlines is an issue as well.
Finally, the Zeppelin or blimp type vessels discussed so far require quite some effort, although they might be viable with Safehold materials.
I just don't see the overriding advantage compared to costs.

Concerning hot-air balloons, while costs are probably moderate to low, their utility for the EoC seems to be very limited.

BTW: Fitting a kite to lift one human should not be that difficult, if the kite is big enough. And if you consider the kite to be primarily a towing kite, using it as an oberservation post is only a secondary use. I grant that getting someone up and down would be a somewhat convoluted and wet business, but ICN sailors should be used to that...