Question about satelites

fallsfromtrees wrote:

n7axw wrote:We have to presume that there would be sensor coverage of the entire planet, but not necessarily snarcs.

Don

The point I was attempting to make was that you can't assume that Merlin and the inner circle are the only ones with low level sensor capability, and that the OBS is restricted to what it can sense from its deep space locale.

I really don't disagree with that, but how handicapped would the OBS be from its deep space position. We have already more or less established that the OBS itself has several cells, more or less positioned to keep the planet under continious observation. It's entirely possible that the quality and power of the sensors available to the OBS are such the snarcs aren't needed.

But nonetheless,after I'm done speculating, you are right. We can't simply presume this is the case.

Don

n7axw wrote:

fallsfromtrees wrote:The point I was attempting to make was that you can't assume that Merlin and the inner circle are the only ones with low level sensor capability, and that the OBS is restricted to what it can sense from its deep space locale.

I really don't disagree with that, but how handicapped would the OBS be from its deep space position. We have already more or less established that the OBS itself has several cells, more or less positioned to keep the planet under continious observation. It's entirely possible that the quality and power of the sensors available to the OBS are such the snarcs aren't needed.

But nonetheless,after I'm done speculating, you are right. We can't simply presume this is the case.

Don

The textev talks about the Rakurai sweeping silently in its deadly orbit around the planet, so it isn't located at the Lagrange points, and given Federation tech, it isn't in a geosynchronous orbit either. RFC gave us a pretty good description a while back, but to summarize IIRC, it's a globe of many, many satellites, which include scanners and defensive weapons. It's located in a lower orbit that than many readers think, and it covers the entire planet with its scanners, whatever type they happen to be, and its orbit most likely circles the planet in less than a day. It also has six loaded KEW (Kinetic Energy Weapon) cells, and RFC has noted that he never said they couldn't be reloaded.

That's RFC at his best, offering "helpful" information but not painting himself into a corner in case he has a better idea later on - or possibly he's just having fun at our expense and laughing at the speculation that results!

McGuiness wrote:The textev talks about the Rakurai sweeping silently in its deadly orbit around the planet, so it isn't located at the Lagrange points, and given Federation tech, it isn't in a geosynchronous orbit either.

Questionable. It could be just a slight exagerration by Merlin's side. After all, the Lagrange points are still considered the orbit; synchrolunar, if i may make this therm, but orbit.

Dilandu wrote:

McGuiness wrote:The textev talks about the Rakurai sweeping silently in its deadly orbit around the planet, so it isn't located at the Lagrange points, and given Federation tech, it isn't in a geosynchronous orbit either.

Questionable. It could be just a slight exagerration by Merlin's side. After all, the Lagrange points are still considered the orbit; synchrolunar, if i may make this therm, but orbit.

From OAR: "The kinetic bombardment platforms which had been used against Shan-wei were still there, sweeping silently in orbit around the planet. It was impossible to be certain, but Merlin was virtually positive the platforms were tasked to bombard and destroy any ground-based energy signature which might indicate that Safeholdians were straying from the dictates of The Book of Jwo-jeng's limitations on technology. The energy footprint of an electrical generating plant, for example."

We don't know exactly how high an orbit the OBS satellites are in, but clearly, they need to scan the entire planet on a regular basis. Merlin thinks they're scanning for emerging tech, but it's pretty clear he worries about their reaction to TF tech as well, which is why he's never fired the skimmer's energy weapons, even though he's wanted to on a couple of occasions.

Which makes me wonder - what would the OBS do if Merlin sent the skimmer to Zion and had it attack the temple? An obvious misuse of TF tech on the one target that cannot be bombarded under any circumstances...

McGuiness wrote:
Which makes me wonder - what would the OBS do if Merlin sent the skimmer to Zion and had it attack the temple? An obvious misuse of TF tech on the one target that cannot be bombarded under any circumstances...

Probably the computer would just activate the laser defense platform and let her take out the skimmer. I'm pretty sure that the TF-level defense lasers would be perfectly capable to do the hit even through atmosphere.

P.S. What is interesting, is: why the Temple's detection systems weren't alerted when Merlin used the compact tractor beam to give Erayk problmes in first book? This was a large flux of energy almost in the direct proximity, and this energy could NOT be produced by some natural phenomenon.

Dilandu wrote:

McGuiness wrote:Which makes me wonder - what would the OBS do if Merlin sent the skimmer to Zion and had it attack the temple? An obvious misuse of TF tech on the one target that cannot be bombarded under any circumstances...

Probably the computer would just activate the laser defense platform and let her take out the skimmer. I'm pretty sure that the TF-level defense lasers would be perfectly capable to do the hit even through atmosphere.

P.S. What is interesting, is: why the Temple's detection systems weren't alerted when Merlin used the compact tractor beam to give Erayk problmes in first book? This was a large flux of energy almost in the direct proximity, and this energy could NOT be produced by some natural phenomenon.

Thanks a lot, ruining my perfectly good scenario by using logic!

We don't actually know how powerful those space based lasers are, and the atmosphere scatters light beams dramatically. I'm of the opinion that the TF most certainly developed lasers that can rip through Safehold's atmosphere to take out small targets that don't merit orbital bombardment, but several people have disagreed with me. Someone posted a link to a youtube video showing the U.S. military frying a missile with a laser, so obviously modern lasers are becoming sufficiently powerful to become militarily useful, although missiles are surprisingly fragile weapons despite their ability to fly at supersonic speeds. I'd hate to depend on lasers in a thunderstorm though!

So to make my scenario a quandary for the OBS again, let's assume that its lasers can't punch through a thunderstorm, and the skimmer attacks the temple during the worst storm on record. What does the OBS do?

As for Merlin getting away with using a tractor beam on Archbishop Dynnys in Zion, that was a calculated risk and necessary for the plot. So we have to let RFC allow us to believe that the energy involved was too low to activate any sort of response from the temple, given that Madame Nynian's house of ill repute was several miles away. RFC has been rather quiet on that subject as far as I know, but are we certain that the tractor beam wasn't noticed simply because there hasn't been an observable response yet?

So to make my scenario a quandary for the OBS again, let's assume that its lasers can't punch through a thunderstorm, and the skimmer attacks the temple during the worst storm on record. What does the OBS do?

This depend of:

1) How much "free will" have the computers aboard? If they have something like full-capable AI, they may be able to find some solution.

2) What exactly weapons OBS platforms have onboard?

Seems that the ultimate way to deal with the problem would be shut the Temple's blastdoors (assuming that it have it, wich seems probable), and just blast out Zion with the attacker, leaving the Temple intact.

The survivors would be absolutely sure that the some Shain-Wei demonspawn were attacking the Temple, and the God was so angered, that he released the Rakurai on it, mercifully sparing the Temple. And truly, isn't it the god's own wonder - that the Temple was the only thing that survived the Rakurai?

Dilandu wrote:

So to make my scenario a quandary for the OBS again, let's assume that its lasers can't punch through a thunderstorm, and the skimmer attacks the temple during the worst storm on record. What does the OBS do?

This depend of:

1) How much "free will" have the computers aboard? If they have something like full-capable AI, they may be able to find some solution.

2) What exactly weapons OBS platforms have onboard?

Seems that the ultimate way to deal with the problem would be shut the Temple's blastdoors (assuming that it have it, wich seems probable), and just blast out Zion with the attacker, leaving the Temple intact.

The survivors would be absolutely sure that the some Shain-Wei demonspawn were attacking the Temple, and the God was so angered, that he released the Rakurai on it, mercifully sparing the Temple. And truly, isn't it the god's own wonder - that the Temple was the only thing that survived the Rakurai?

You know, it takes all the fun out of this when you manage to think like Clyntahn!

The Temple's dome is made of battle steel, but its windows are not. They're made of something incredibly tough, but the Temple wasn't built until after the War of the Fallen, and by that time the archangels were most likely reasonably sure there weren't any weapons in enemy hands that could breach whatever the "glass" in the temple windows is made of. It can stop bullets, and it's completely impermeable to temperature, but an OBS strike on Zion might be another matter, and the resulting 9.0+ earthquake would cause the Foundations to Quiver quite a lot, don't you think?

The Temple would still be standing afterwards, but the shock wave transmitted through the bedrock might shake the interior so badly that it would kill everyone inside - certainly the flying debris would injure and kill a number of people, plus a lot of vicars live in Zion. That's why I think a radius centered on the temple that includes Zion is probably programed out of the OBS' "areas that can be hit with a kinetic strike."

The textev states that each of the six loaded cells of the OBS could take out half a continent. Prior to HFQ we had no info from RFC that those cells could take out less than that, although it's pretty clear that the amount of matter involved in a kinetic strike can be adjusted, based on the way the SSK described the final strike, which was relatively minor. There were archangels around back then to select a strike of the appropriate strength, but there aren't any now, so who knows what the OBS' programming tells it to do - blast half a continent, or just the offending technology? It would be silly to take out a major city if some inventor develops an electrical generator, but there's only so small you can make the impact of a KEW, although if we accept that TF lasers can pierce the atmosphere, the OBS could burn a limitless number of relatively small targets to dust.

I think we just made Merlin's job a lot more difficult!

McGuiness wrote:You know, it takes all the fun out of this when you manage to think like Clyntahn!

Thanks.

The Temple's dome is made of battle steel, but its windows are not.

But they may have a blastproof shutters, hidden in structure.

They're made of something incredibly tough, but the Temple wasn't built until after the War of the Fallen, and by that time the archangels were most likely reasonably sure there weren't any weapons in enemy hands that could breach whatever the "glass" in the temple windows is made of.

Questionable. They still mantain the "Rakurai" laser defense, even after the war - while the possibility of space-based attack after the war was incredibly less. Seems reasonable to provide the Temple with some sort of at least passive defense against some fallen with another pocket nuke.

It can stop bullets, and it's completely impermeable to temperature, but an OBS strike on Zion might be another matter, and the resulting 9.0+ earthquake would cause the Foundations to Quiver quite a lot, don't you think?

That depend of how would the impact be centered. If the projectile hit the Lake Pei, the shokwave would be sufficient to destroy any aircraft over Zion, but at least part of the energy would be absorbed.

It's so much fun to read when the two of you sit together to discuss stuff.

If I may put my two cents in, I'd say in such case (skimmer blasting Temple) Rakurai would probably "call home" to ask if it may (pretty please?) strike its command center. Whether anyone would be able to answer it - or even realize that Rakurai's calling - is... pretty much anyone's guess.

Another question would be whether some smart person in the Temple would say yes or no. If it was Clyntahn who'd answer the call, I'd say yes; if Duchairn or Magwair, I'd say no.

Or, there's another option: what if there's a dormant AI in OBS's computers? It would stay "asleep" when there's no need for Rakurai to strike (to avoid all those problems Merlin mentioned to Nahrmahn), and be "awoken" by presence of "unholy" tech. It would probably be on Sentient!Owl level or a bit below, capable of assessing whether the strike is necessary and, if so, what power should be used.

Even if there was AI, I'd still stick with "ask the Temple first" option in situation you've been discussing. Sort of like artillery sergeant asking the general if it would be okay for him to bomb the HQ.