Hot Air and the start of Flight

fallsfromtrees wrote:Not clear with steam engines for the motive power. It is certainly possible if you have the IC engine, but that was in a different thread, and got thoroughly hashed over with a lot of people both pro and con.

Well, as i mention above - the Stringfellow steam engine in 1868 was able to gave one horsepower from 5 kg weight. So, the steam engine itself - or Sterling engine - could be used to drive the airships pretty good.

n7axw wrote:There is really no textev at all on the subject of gunpowder. However, given the kind of society the Archangels were committed to maintaining, not forbiding gunpowder would have been nuts. So I, for one, suspect that it was indeed forbidden...which of course is why a bribe was needed to get it approved.

Don

RFC actually jumped in and gave a pretty extensive explanation of the origins of gunpowder. Someone in North Harchong wanted to build canals to rival those in Siddarmark - or at least to get the goods to market from western Harchong to the east a lot cheaper.

Exactly how the canal builder stumbled across gunpowder escapes me at the moment, but yeah, there was a REALLY large bribe included - so big that the entire canal project went broke and was abandoned. It's rather ironic that the ONE substance that was guaranteed to upset the social matrix was introduced by the Harchongese, who are the model of a static society. Of course China had gunpowder for centuries and pretty much only used it for fireworks, so from that example it's clear that just because an invention becomes available, it won't necessarily be used in violent ways in the society where it was invented.

Those Charisians and Desnairans and Dohlarans and probably a few Siddarmarkans (and throw in the rest of the islands) obviously saw the opportunity for mayhem that gunpowder offered, so by the time Merlin arrived, crude but serviceable cannon had been invented, as had matchlock muskets. He nudged the mayhem up a notch with all those helpful suggestion in OAR, and OWL has certainly been helpful, although it's a bit strange that the head of weapons development for the EoC isn't in the inner circle and never will be.

Now that the CoGA has repeating rifles better than the allies Mahndrayns, field artillery and shells, (although not as powerful) and will certainly introduce their own land mines in the near future, the battles this summer are going to be a lot more difficult. So BGV needs to clean Wyrshym's clock by then, and DE needs to crush the Dohlarans, and HM needs to smash Kaitswyrth before those 2 million Harchongese with their 600,000 rifles arrive.

Back on topic, I've wondered for several books now why the ICA hasn't introduced observation balloons yet - or the ICN for that matter, which could use them to cover the fact that their admirals have access to SNARCs. DE and HM could both use them to good effect, and goodness knows Hanth needs all the help he can get, considering how much territory he has to defend with so few troops, and no access to OWL. DE had better be on his way to reinforce him, or bad things are gonna happen at Evrytyn!

McGuiness wrote:
Back on topic, I've wondered for several books now why the ICA hasn't introduced observation balloons yet - or the ICN for that matter, which could use them to cover the fact that their admirals have access to SNARCs. DE and HM could both use them to good effect, and goodness knows Hanth needs all the help he can get, considering how much territory he has to defend with so few troops, and no access to OWL. DE had better be on his way to reinforce him, or bad things are gonna happen at Evrytyn!

My take would be that the added value of hot-air baloons is quite limited. Without light motors, airtight (non-flammable) textiles, and preferably helium they are, I assume, slow or static, and always prone to wind and weather. Since strategic decisions are already informed by far superior intelligence gathering and field commanders use that (or get visits by Ahbraim Zhevons) as well, it'd basically be a cover story. Simultaneously, those baloons would be prone to enemy fire (it's a barn, rather) and would certainly hinder the quick movements of ICA units, which was up to now quite critical to the ICA's successes.
As to the ICN: The more interesting question would be why they don't go for kites, especially for steel-framed, motorized ships. These are, after all, valid solutions of the 21st century, might be used for recon as well, and might be feasible with steel silk and Safehold tech. Moreover, they should be rather inexpensive.

McGuiness wrote: So BGV needs to clean Wyrshym's clock by then, and DE needs to crush the Dohlarans, and HM needs to smash Kaitswyrth before those 2 million Harchongese with their 600,000 rifles arrive.

Well, as it have been demonstrated in Italo-Turkish war of 1911 - the aviation on the battlefield have a tremendous effect on the morale of pre-industrial soldiers. Even if the attacks itself aren't very destructive (italian airships in 1911 was only able to carry a very light bombs), the possibility of the enemy attack from the sky, the psychological effect of airship, flying above (that something that big could fly)... most of Harchongese soldiers would just run.

anwi wrote:
As to the ICN: The more interesting question would be why they don't go for kites, especially for steel-framed, motorized ships. These are, after all, valid solutions of the 21st century, might be used for recon as well, and might be feasible with steel silk and Safehold tech. Moreover, they should be rather inexpensive.

Because they didn't have motorized ships in anything like sufficient quantites. They have a couple of river and coastal ironclads, and they building KH's. The charisian navy is not as balanced as Earth navy's, it's still sail for the 99%/

anwi wrote:

McGuiness wrote:Back on topic, I've wondered for several books now why the ICA hasn't introduced observation balloons yet - or the ICN for that matter, which could use them to cover the fact that their admirals have access to SNARCs. DE and HM could both use them to good effect, and goodness knows Hanth needs all the help he can get, considering how much territory he has to defend with so few troops, and no access to OWL. DE had better be on his way to reinforce him, or bad things are gonna happen at Evrytyn!

My take would be that the added value of hot-air baloons is quite limited. Without light motors, airtight (non-flammable) textiles, and preferably helium they are, I assume, slow or static, and always prone to wind and weather. Since strategic decisions are already informed by far superior intelligence gathering and field commanders use that (or get visits by Ahbraim Zhevons) as well, it'd basically be a cover story. Simultaneously, those baloons would be prone to enemy fire (it's a barn, rather) and would certainly hinder the quick movements of ICA units, which was up to now quite critical to the ICA's successes.
As to the ICN: The more interesting question would be why they don't go for kites, especially for steel-framed, motorized ships. These are, after all, valid solutions of the 21st century, might be used for recon as well, and might be feasible with steel silk and Safehold tech. Moreover, they should be rather inexpensive.

I'm all for having the ICN drag flying observation posts behind them, especially now that they have steam engines, so a Haarahld VII could really benefit from having some sort of observation post a few hundred feet above it that could see far beyond the horizon for enemy ships or lucrative convoys to pounce on.

The ICA has been using towering nearoaks or cliffs as lookout posts for their scouts, so they haven't needed a way to create their own high altitude vantage points if one doesn't happen to be available. Sending up a tethered balloon well behind their lines would solve that problem, but a kite wouldn't work for them.

I know that a hot air balloon will stay airborne for as long as I have fuel to feed the stove (or whatever contraption they use to generate heat) while a kite would seem to be a bit susceptible to the vagaries of wind, which quite often would not be blowing in the same direction as the ship - or is stronger than the 15 knot effective wind the ship generates dragging the kite along behind it. Since a kite doesn't need fuel, it would have the advantage of theoretically being able to stay up longer, so you have a valid point if it works. Tell you what, I'll man the hot air balloon if you volunteer for the manned experiments with kites!

If you're referring to some sort of hang glider, it seems like that's a workable solution, but I'm not sure how you'd manage to steer and flash messages or fly signal flags when you need your hands to keep the thing in the air. If the weather turns ugly before the ship can pull us back in though, we're both gonna be swimming, but I bet a hot air balloon doesn't hit the water quite as hard as a kite does. Splat!

McGuiness wrote:
If you're referring to some sort of hang glider, it seems like that's a workable solution, but I'm not sure how you'd manage to steer and flash messages or fly signal flags when you need your hands to keep the thing in the air.

And maybe we just build a simple, old-fashioned hydrogen-filled airship? That would be much more usefull, than both hot air baloon or kite?...

Dilandu wrote:

McGuiness wrote: So BGV needs to clean Wyrshym's clock by then, and DE needs to crush the Dohlarans, and HM needs to smash Kaitswyrth before those 2 million Harchongese with their 600,000 rifles arrive.

Well, as it have been demonstrated in Italo-Turkish war of 1911 - the aviation on the battlefield have a tremendous effect on the morale of pre-industrial soldiers. Even if the attacks itself aren't very destructive (italian airships in 1911 was only able to carry a very light bombs), the possibility of the enemy attack from the sky, the psychological effect of airship, flying above (that something that big could fly)... most of Harchongese soldiers would just run.

That might work as long as you have a motorized airship, so you can control where you're going - which we don't know is possible in RFC's universe using steam engines, but he'll find a way to make it work if he likes the idea. Diesels are still a couple of years away at best.

But yes, if you could fly above the range of those 600,000 rifles and drop a few bombs, the effect on the morale of those ignorant Harchongese serfs who have been taught that only archangels can fly would likely be much more devastating than it was in Italo-Turkish war - until the inquisitors convince them that it's just another weapon of the heretics, and not a very dangerous one at that. So its effectiveness in breaking enemy morale and causing a rout had better be decisive the first few times it's used, because it won't be nearly as effective once the surprise and superstition wear off.

If you had 20 or 30 of the things headed for the enemy army, that would be a tough thing for any troops to face, even if they'd gotten over their superstitious dread. If they hadn't yet, a rout would seem inevitable. The more the merrier!

McGuiness wrote:That might work as long as you have a motorized airship, so you can control where you're going - which we don't know is possible in RFC's universe using steam engines, but he'll find a way to make it work if he likes the idea.

Well, it's technically possible - as i mentioned above, the quite powerfull lightweight steam engines existed as early as 1860th. The main problem on Earth was that the airship inventors in XIX weren't always the good engine inventors (and visa-versa).

But yes, if you could fly above the range of those 600,000 rifles and drop a few bombs,

There simply no way to shoot down even the low-flying airships with rifles. They are highly resistant to the small holing of baloons.

until the inquisitors convince them that it's just another weapon of the heretics, and not a very dangerous one at that.

Generally speaking, the inquisition would be unable to do that. Because they didn't knew anything about the aeronautic, they would be unable to determine the actual threat, and more - they would be tended to exagerrate it VERY much. Even the Clyntah may start to panic.

And let's not forget about the general population reaction for a aerial bombing (or even the simply leafet's drop).

For millenia, the ultimate rule for civilian in warfare was, that if you stay far enough of the frontlines (and coasts), that your would be sufficiently safe. At least, not until the frontline would go near you.

The aviation break this rule. The aviation could possibly strike anywhere in their range. No place is really safe. No city could be considered "far enough", especially if the real combat range of the enemy aircrafts is unknown.

The United Kingdom was greatly hurt by zeppelins attack in 1915-1917. The direct damage wasn't big, but the morale damage was incredible. The zeppelins was able to hit any englishman anywhere on islands; the Royal Navy couldn't stop them, the royal army couldn't stop them. Anyone suddenly found itself in danger. And the fear and panic was great.

Generally speaking, the "allmighty Britannia" era was ended by zeppelins. They demonstrated, that even on their islands, the population of Britain would not be safe anymore. And this shatter all.

For the Safehold situation, the morale damage would me far, far greater. There are would be riots. There would be whole towns evacuated, the population flee from air attacks, even if they wouldn't be directed against them. And that would be a LOT of problems for the CoGA.