Question about Beowulf tactics

munroburton wrote:Did a search for 'battle fleet reserve' and only got four hits from the whole series. It helps if you can remember the names - none of those four hits I got even mentioned Hyperion One.

A search for Hyperion got me this, from ART:

"Hyperion One was the SLN's primary Sol System Space station. It was not only the Navy's largest single construction and service platform but the HQ location for its Logistics Command. LogCom was responsible for the vast number of superdreadnoughts mothballed not only there but at Battle Fleet installations in half a dozen other star systems."

So, seven Reserve depots in total.

Wonderful!! Excellent!! Bravo!! I wish I had the books in text format. How, by the way, did you manage that??

I had remembered it as 2 but I will accept the half dozen number you found. That many targets makes it more difficult to destroy the mothball fleet, but still possible. Attacking around the Old-Earth system is a bit prickly from a political stand point though. But still, after they attack Beowulf, such an attack on the SOL system, as long as it was just against the mothball fleet and never threatened Earth itself, would still be doable.

Travel time wise, how far away from Beowulf is Mesa?? I ask because by the timing of the books, with ART ending in August 1922 and Cauldron of Ghosts, which ends with Zilwicki returning to Manticore and Henke arriving in Mesa, ending in October of 1922. The timing is right for the battle in Beowulf and Henke arrival in Mesa to happen at about the same time. It would be great to get Henke's fleet involved in the mothball fleet raids as well, if the communications to arrange it were possible. Getting hit from multiple directions should have the SLN admiral's heads spinning.

Jonathan_S wrote:It's nice (I got the ebooks from Baen and then converted the rich text format, rtf, files to plain text). But it's also still surprisingly difficult at time to find certain half-remembered bits of text-ev. Misremembering a single key word can be enough to make something nearly impossible to find -- even with the full searchable text.

See munroburton's example from the previous page. Only by remembering the key name "Hyperion One" was he able to find the info he was looking for. A "logical" keyword like "Reserve" totally missed it because RFC just called them "mothballed" in that description.

(And don't get me started on abbreviations -- for example there are about 6 or 8 different ways an acceleration might be written out in the books)

It may be difficult, but it is at least possible. I'll have to look at the CD that came with the hard cover of one of the books and see what format those are in. Maybe I can have at least some of the books in a searchable format.

kzt wrote:

StealthSeeker wrote: I think the only thing that can fit a Mark-23 is a ship designed from scratch that can accommodate it's size.

Most of your post is right, but Manticore actually did rebuild a few SDs to handle tube launched MDMs. Not sure if they were Mk23 or or the bigger capacitor based ones that preceded them without looking it up.

Jonathan_S wrote:I think some of each.
HoS explicitly says some Gryphons were modified to handle Mk23 (fusion powered) MDMs, but I believe some other SDs were built or modified to handle MDMs back in the run-up to Buttercup -- and those would have been the larger capacitor powered birds.

If I remember correctly, operation buttercup was the first use of the SD(P) class of ships and the first use of dual drive MDM missiles, which I think would have made them the Mk16 missiles not the Mk23. So some older ships may have been refitted for the Mk16, but maybe not for the larger Mk23. Henke is using older SD(P)s and all she has in Mk16 missiles. (I think)

SharkHunter wrote:

SWM wrote:No one was suggesting using the Reserve in the attack on Beowulf. Stealthseeker was suggesting that Beowulf destroy the Reserve in response to the attack on Beowulf.

Ah. I didn't read back far enough. Though I would argue that without the GA SD-P's however, what makes anyone think that the Beowulf SDF could pull that off, as early on they will only have 36 "just better than SLN SD's", needed for system defense (Hello, Mesa?) not SD(p)'s? Politically, I don't see why Beowulf would bother to expend the political capital, travel time, or missile ammunition on the attempt. Should the GA make the decision, a few Nike(s), Sag-C's and CLACs per yard will be enough and Beowulf wouldn't need to join the fray.

Although after any attack on Beowulf (which will fail), I think that the Beowulf SDF would temporarily have as many Solarian SD's as they want to keep in operation, less those that got turned into raw materials on the way in. After which they can just use them for target practice or for holiday fireworks, solar flare experiments, etc.

After the attack on Beowulf occurs and the vote is taken to withdraw from the SL, I thing a great many of those 100 or so Manty SD and SD(P)s and CLAC's at the wormhole terminus might become available to accompany Beowulf's own SD's on a little cruse to Old-Earth. (and elsewhere) And again, we want to save on Manty missiles so most of the destruction will be done by the LAC's Grazers. Use only enough missiles to compel forces to surrender.

n7axw wrote:Prior to Buttercup, the Peeps might have been able to take Beowulf, but they wouldn't have been able to keep it. The SLN had more than enough to boot the Peeps back where they came from and irritating the SLN by aggression against an SL member would have not been a good survival choice.

Don

Prior to buttercup the Peeps were still using single stage missiles that would only have been marginally better than what the SLN was using. At that point in time the SLN would have still been able to call up massive numbers of their SD's and kicked the Peep's posterior.

It's only the current technology gap that makes Manticore and Haven a threat to the SLN.

StealthSeeker wrote:Prior to buttercup the Peeps were still using single stage missiles that would only have been marginally better than what the SLN was using. At that point in time the SLN would have still been able to call up massive numbers of their SD's and kicked the Peep's posterior.

It's only the current technology gap that makes Manticore and Haven a threat to the SLN.

I am not that sure. PRN was launching missiles from a BC at 15 second intervals in 1903. The SLN 35 second intervals in 1922.

The PRN is going to be towing 160 missiles in pods per SD (minimum) in 1912. That would be another 5 SDs worth of missiles each in that initial launch.

So IF the SLN had a tech advantage it really isn't going to be the simple thing you think it is.

As a matter of fact the Peeps in Exile--no real geeks were able to upgrade deployed SLN software by 25% in the attack on Torch. To limited defense instead of of abysmal.

Not to mention in anything short of energy range a PRN BB squadron would trounce a SLN SD squadron. They had around 200+ of them.

The peeps were putting more than 100 wallers in commission a year at that time. Build rates were similar or better than Manticore's.

Peeps had been using in combat the laserhead for more than 20 years at that time.

In short in my opinion the only thing really saving the ISLN at that time was Manticore.

Interesting thought problem,
T2M

thinkstoomuch wrote:

StealthSeeker wrote:Prior to buttercup the Peeps were still using single stage missiles that would only have been marginally better than what the SLN was using. At that point in time the SLN would have still been able to call up massive numbers of their SD's and kicked the Peep's posterior.

It's only the current technology gap that makes Manticore and Haven a threat to the SLN.

I am not that sure. PRN was launching missiles from a BC at 15 second intervals in 1903. The SLN 35 second intervals in 1922.

The PRN is going to be towing 160 missiles in pods per SD (minimum) in 1912. That would be another 5 SDs worth of missiles each in that initial launch.

So IF the SLN had a tech advantage it really isn't going to be the simple thing you think it is.

As a matter of fact the Peeps in Exile--no real geeks were able to upgrade deployed SLN software by 25% in the attack on Torch. To limited defense instead of of abysmal.

Not to mention in anything short of energy range a PRN BB squadron would trounce a SLN SD squadron. They had around 200+ of them.

The peeps were putting more than 100 wallers in commission a year at that time. Build rates were similar or better than Manticore's.

Peeps had been using in combat the laserhead for more than 20 years at that time.

In short in my opinion the only thing really saving the ISLN at that time was Manticore.

Interesting thought problem,
T2M

The hypothesis was that the Peeps had actually overrun Manticore, which means that Manticore doesn't drive the Peep war development, and pods never get used. The PNE attach on Torch was after the end of the first war, hence after a good deal of development because of the Manticore tech edge, which wouldn't have happened, and much of the PNE edge was due to the Technodyne extended range missiles, which probably wouldn't have been developed since Manticore would not have had the time to do so. And remember, at the start of the first war, Haven was desperate for any scrap of Sollie tech they could lay their hands on. So on balance I think that the SL would have beaten Haven, but the two sides would have pretty much destroyed each others fleets, which could have led to a general uprising in the Verge and the breakup of the League, which is what the MAlign had in mind. I think that in the original plan, Haven was one of the wolves they planned to use to drag down the bison.

fallsfromtrees wrote:The hypothesis was that the Peeps had actually overrun Manticore, which means that Manticore doesn't drive the Peep war development, and pods never get used. The PNE attach on Torch was after the end of the first war, hence after a good deal of development because of the Manticore tech edge, which wouldn't have happened, and much of the PNE edge was due to the Technodyne extended range missiles, which probably wouldn't have been developed since Manticore would not have had the time to do so. And remember, at the start of the first war, Haven was desperate for any scrap of Sollie tech they could lay their hands on. So on balance I think that the SL would have beaten Haven, but the two sides would have pretty much destroyed each others fleets, which could have led to a general uprising in the Verge and the breakup of the League, which is what the MAlign had in mind. I think that in the original plan, Haven was one of the wolves they planned to use to drag down the bison.

Pretty much that, or more to the point, if you remember the scence in the old James Bond Movie "From Russia with Love" with the Siamese Fighting Fish, the MALignment would let a "Greater Haven" (with Manticore/Anderman/Silesia) and the SL, both institutions corrupt and easily guided, pretty much wreck each other and lead to chaos in the Galaxy, from which a third power, honest and noble and offering peace and prosperity from War and ruin, would emerge to reshape the Human race so that no conflict like this could ever take place again.

At least that was the plan a century or so ago. Things have changed slightly (Roger II is beloved; if such things are possible in the future and the real truth be known, he ought to be Sainted...and I say that as a confirmed Anti-Religionist)>

StealthSeeker wrote:It may be difficult, but it is at least possible. I'll have to look at the CD that came with the hard cover of one of the books and see what format those are in. Maybe I can have at least some of the books in a searchable format.

Everything up through Mission of Honor and Torch of Freedom are available at the Fifth Imperium in the Baen Free Library files (zip and ISO copies of all the various CDs included in first printings.) The files include ePUB or LIT, RTF and HTML versions and are DRM free so Calibre can convert to PDF or Kindle (mobi or azw3) as desired.

StealthSeeker wrote:If I remember correctly, operation buttercup was the first use of the SD(P) class of ships and the first use of dual drive MDM missiles, which I think would have made them the Mk16 missiles not the Mk23. So some older ships may have been refitted for the Mk16, but maybe not for the larger Mk23. Henke is using older SD(P)s and all she has in Mk16 missiles. (I think)

1: MDMs used in Buttercup were capacitor powered--Mk 31s?. The Fusion powered Mk-16 and Mk23 weren't developed until the interwar years.

2: Michelle Henke commanded a squadron of Agamemnon BC(P)s when she was captured. The Aggies can fire either Mk-16 or Mk-23 but have more ammo when loaded with Mk-16s.

Well if that is the case it may even be worse.

No Fleet 2000. No new SLN BCs. No Vegas. And then the PRN is launching at 3 times the speed of the opposition.

Does the SLN even use laserheads at this point? The Solarian League may have better tech than Haven but, the ISLN does not have better deployed tech than the PRN. Worse in practice in actually doing anything about it.

A lot can be offset by the people running the PRN which is probably more important--if they can ride the tiger.

But really is a harder thought experiment way too many "if comes ... then."

So I guess I will just bow back out.

Have fun,
T2M

fallsfromtrees wrote:

StealthSeeker wrote:Prior to buttercup the Peeps were still using single stage missiles that would only have been marginally better than what the SLN was using. At that point in time the SLN would have still been able to call up massive numbers of their SD's and kicked the Peep's posterior.

It's only the current technology gap that makes Manticore and Haven a threat to the SLN.

The hypothesis was that the Peeps had actually overrun Manticore, which means that Manticore doesn't drive the Peep war development, and pods never get used. The PNE attach on Torch was after the end of the first war, hence after a good deal of development because of the Manticore tech edge, which wouldn't have happened, and much of the PNE edge was due to the Technodyne extended range missiles, which probably wouldn't have been developed since Manticore would not have had the time to do so. And remember, at the start of the first war, Haven was desperate for any scrap of Sollie tech they could lay their hands on. So on balance I think that the SL would have beaten Haven, but the two sides would have pretty much destroyed each others fleets, which could have led to a general uprising in the Verge and the breakup of the League, which is what the MAlign had in mind. I think that in the original plan, Haven was one of the wolves they planned to use to drag down the bison.

Yes, this is more of what I had in mind. The thing that is really messing up Mesa's plans is the way in which Manticore keeps developing new tech. Something that Mesa didn't plan on. It's why Manticore is still around to MA's disgust. If Manticore hadn't survived Torch would not exist and every star system would be using roughly equivalent war technology. Except for the MA that is. It was always Mesa's intent to be the ones to develop the technology to allow them to dominate the battlefield when the time came. Mesa had centuries worth of R&D to accomplish this. They developed the "spider" drive and the much faster higher bands of hyperdrive. Mesa had always intended to be able to do to it's enemies what Manticore is doing with it's technology currently.

I can't wait to see what kinds of technology leaps happen when the Manty techs and Haven techs get together in bolthole. It should be awe inspiring and cause the MA a great deal of trouble. Wonderful stuff, just wonderful. The MA just may find itself battling tech just as advanced (or better) as their own in the end. Something completely outside of their plans. What fun!