My rant/fantasy regarding the A-10(A&B) Warthog.

Thucydides wrote:As usual, everyone want's to fight the last war, but seems to forget that things have changed in the mean time. Lightweight weapons, advanced communications and powerful computing capabilities that didn't even exist in the 1990's are now facts of life for military forces everywhere.

Exactly!

Annachie wrote:Question: would the A10 take more hits than say the multi role would, since the multirole is typically at a much higher altitude?

Dilandu wrote:Answer: the multi-role armed with standoff weapon generally would not take ANY hits, simply because it wouldn't go near enemy air defense. It would send his missiles from the long distance and go away;

Wrong, as with a quote I heard attributed to Curtis LeMay stating that if the altitude of the enemy air defense is raised, we'll just build bombers to fly higher. Wrong, you can launch rockets to the Moon, you can't fly bombers over the moon. Like that, if you can launch missiles into an area, I can launch air defense missiles right back out. So , yeh, the Multi-role aircraft can sometimes stand off & fire into a situation to avoid AAA but it can't avoid return missile fire, AND it can’t just stand off and lob missiles into a situation where the enemy is right on-top of friendly troops. The stand off approach also has absolutely none of the morale/scatter effect that the A-10 has, which was discussed earlier.

Dilandu wrote:the main problem would be the enemy fighters.
And A-10 is completely powerless against anything like fighter aircraft.
So, the A-10 need F-15 to be anything like effective. The F-15 didn't need A-10 to be effective. It would NOT coime back, if the enemy have modern fighters or multi-level anti-air defense. Simply speaking - A-10 is useless without F-15 to protect it and to carry SAM suppression missions....The A-10 could carry about 7260 kg on hardpoints. The F-15E could carry about 10400 kg on hardpoints. And A-10 need to be escorted by F-15 if the enemy fighter aircrafts are presented.

Wrong again, 1st the F-15E cannot simply fight enemy fighters while carrying out a CAS (or any other ground attack) mission. While loaded, the bomb payload, on its racks, add too much weight & drag for it to be an effective fighter plus it carries no Sparrow/AMRAAM missiles. Its only air defense is the Sidewinder (if the enemy happen to get in-front of it). If jumped by enemy fighters while on a ground attack mission unescorted, it has to jettison its payload to free itself up to engage in a close range dogfight, thus scrubbing & failing its mission. If enemy fighter activity is suspected, the Multi-role aircraft must be escorted to prevent its having to jettison and abort. The A-10 is also NOT defenseless against enemy fighters. You really should do your research better. It is extremely difficult for a jet fighter to shoot down an A-10, (I haven't found a single case yet, let me know if you can find one) They practiced this extensively at Cope Thunder. The A-10, flying on the deck with its twin tail, high maneuverability and high ground clutter, is a near impossible shot for air-to-air missiles (IR or radar). That leaves going in with guns, & THAT'S just stupid. The A-10 can fly the wings off ANY jet fighter in a close range dogfight, it can turn faster than an F-16 & with that massive GAU-8 waiting on the other end to turn you into Swiss cheese, it was described by F-16 pilots as “grabbing a Tiger by the tail”. It'll spin around on a dime and rip you to pieces. That's not to mention the fact that it flies below the radar envelope so the only way to know where to send the fighters is from visual reports from the fight & by the time the fighters arrive the A-10s will probably be gone & your ground troops dead.

Dilandu wrote:WOULD YOU READ AND UNDERSTOOD FIRST, AND ONLY THEN POST AN ANGRY ANSWER, PLEASE?

Not Angry - Emphasizing to help you understand.

As I pointed out, The Large Long range Standoff Air defense missiles are irrelevant as the A-10 flies too close to the ground for them, as well as the air launched Missiles, to target. The only Air defense missiles that are of major concern to the A-10 is the small shoulder fired SAMs like the Stinger & SA-7.

(Ok maybe a little sarcasm - but not sardonic )

Basically, the A-10 doesn't need an escort, because the only real threat to it, is it's own prey, enemy troops on the ground with shoulder fired missiles & RPGs, which (unlike the SU-25 or A-29) it was physically designed to take and survive, and has done-so.

MAD-4A wrote:
As I pointed out, The Large Long range Standoff Air defense missiles are irrelevant as the A-10 flies too close to the ground for them, as well as the air launched Missiles, to target. The only Air defense missiles that are of major concern to the A-10 is the small shoulder fired SAMs like the Stinger & SA-7.

(Ok maybe a little sarcasm - but not sardonic )

The majority of tactical SAM are perfectly capable to engage low-altitude targets. The only advantage that the low altitude have, is that it significatly reduce the range of missile lock.

Now, with the advent of active homing on SAM's, the A-10 may be downed by S-400 from a hundred kilometers or more (with outside detection, like a AEW plane)

Basically, the A-10 doesn't need an escort, because the only real threat to it, is it's own prey, enemy troops on the ground with shoulder fired missiles & RPGs, which (unlike the SU-25 or A-29) it was physically designed to take and survive, and has done-so.

Basically, without escort it would be immediately destroyed by any enemy fighter that he may meet. The main reason for the low altitude is that you could hide behind the terrain (or under the horizon) from the ground-based radars. The aerial based radars look on the thins at the different ange (literally)

Like that, if you can launch missiles into an area, I can launch air defense missiles right back out.

No. You can't Because you didn't even see my heavy-stealth multi-role fighter at this distance.

And even if you somehow see it - please tell me, what air defense missiles could engage something at over 250 km?

O, i knew, i knew! It's "Bomarc", isn't it? Sadly, but for some reason, they didn't build 700+ km range SAM now... I wonder, why?

but it can't avoid return missile fire,

Yes, it could. I'ts small, stealth target on a great distancem possibly even on low altitude. Your SAM simply haven't got the capabilites to engage it on 500-1000 km. Even on 5 Mach, your SAM would need about five minutes just to fly to the 500 km.

So, the problem is that you wrongly imagine the situation.

Wrong again, 1st the F-15E cannot simply fight enemy fighters while carrying out a CAS (or any other ground attack) mission.

It could at least drop the bombs and flee or fight back. The A-10 cannot flee and cannot fight back.

thus scrubbing & failing its mission.

And the A-10 would not only scrubbing & failing its mission, but also would be destroyed.

Generally, i prefer the aircraft that could NOT do the last.

The A-10, flying on the deck with its twin tail, high maneuverability and high ground clutter, is a near impossible shot for air-to-air missiles (IR or radar).

For 1960th missiles - yes. For the modern missiles - please, don't be ridiculous. The modern seekers could engage targets on less than 50 meters above ground.

The A-10 can fly the wings off ANY jet fighter in a close range dogfight,

My AMRAAM didn't care, my "Sparrow" didn't care, and my "Sidewinder" didn't care either.

Colleague MAD-4A! It seems that you are simply wrongly imagine the situation and have a completely outdated data about modern SAM's and AAM's.

Dilandu wrote:It seems... unlikely, that it would be able to harass the soviet division without a lot of help from "Wild Weasels" and sufficient fighter cover.

I don't think anyone is claiming that the A-10 should operate as the only allied aircraft in a combat zone. Just that the A-10 can do things only the A-10 can do.


As for help from the Wild Weasels, everybody needs help from wild weasels:

Thucydides wrote:As usual, everyone want's to fight the last war, but seems to forget that things have changed in the mean time.

Yep, the Jungles have changed to deserts and the A1E Skyraider has been traded in for the A-10 Thunderbolt II

Vietnam and "The Sandbox" are completely different.

For those advocating fast, standoff multi-role CAS:

Drive down a Freeway at 50 (MPH or KPH, doesn't matter) then drive down an access road along the same route at 10 (by the same units as the 50 pass.) Take note of how much more you can see and have time to recognize at the slower speed.

Dilandu wrote:No. You can't Because you didn't even see my heavy-stealth multi-role fighter at this distance.

And even if you somehow see it - please tell me, what air defense missiles could engage something at over 250 km?

O, i knew, i knew! It's "Bomarc", isn't it? Sadly, but for some reason, they didn't build 700+ km range SAM now... I wonder, why?

Yes, it could. I'ts small, stealth target on a great distancem possibly even on low altitude. Your SAM simply haven't got the capabilites to engage it on 500-1000 km. Even on 5 Mach, your SAM would need about five minutes just to fly to the 500 km.

It could at least drop the bombs and flee or fight back. The A-10 cannot flee and cannot fight back.

For 1960th missiles - yes. For the modern missiles - please, don't be ridiculous. The modern seekers could engage targets on less than 50 meters above ground.

My AMRAAM didn't care, my "Sparrow" didn't care, and my "Sidewinder" didn't care either.

Dilandu! It seems that you are simply wrong. My information on the air-to-air capability comes strait from US Airforce sources. There is NO case of any A-10 ever being shot down by an enemy aircraft, if there is then find it. The A-10 is perfectly capable of holding it's own against enemy fighters. As for the need for an escort, the US Airforce always holds air superiority if not outright supremacy they control the air and the enemy cant send anything up to to engage the A-10 even if they could see them. Yes, the US Army currently doesn't have a SAM with that range, but then, the British Navy doesn't have a SAM with a range greater than 35 miles, does that mean that the Royal Navy CAN'T deploy a missile with a range greater than that? NO, they just don't currently have one. The US Navy had the Standard SM1ER missile which could reach 150 miles, and the current SM3 Block IIA has a range of 1350 nautical miles (2500 km) just because the Arm hasn't deployed them doesn't mean they can't, & YES they can most certainly, hit. they can, & have (with the right FC modifications), hit a satellite in space. don't even try to say you can stand off further than space. Stealth doesn't mean invisible, the only "Heavily Stealthed" aircraft are the single role B-2 & F-117 neither are multi-role. the F-35 & F-22 multi-role aircraft are NOT "Heavily" stealthed, they are Simi-Stealthed for "reduced" signatures. Ground clutters ground clutter even for a modern missile. IR seekers are completely useless due to the aircraft's design. so it is you who are rong on every count

Weird Harold wrote:

Thucydides wrote:As usual, everyone want's to fight the last war, but seems to forget that things have changed in the mean time.

Yep, the Jungles have changed to deserts and the A1E Skyraider has been traded in for the A-10 Thunderbolt II

Vietnam and "The Sandbox" are completely different.

For those advocating fast, standoff multi-role CAS:

Drive down a Freeway at 50 (MPH or KPH, doesn't matter) then drive down an access road along the same route at 10 (by the same units as the 50 pass.) Take note of how much more you can see and have time to recognize at the slower speed.

And they seam to be trying to bring back the F-105 Thud - multi-role fighter/bomber used for ground support / how many of those worthless pieces of crap did we loose? Was there ANY other fixed wing aircraft (or pilots there of) the U.S. lost more of over there? seriously was there? I don't think so.