How do spider drive SD(P)'s fight?

I found the David Weber quote which prompted the statement about whether Detweilers can fight. In
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3282&p=75365&hilit=spider+wedge#p75365:

runsforcelery wrote:As to whether or not the Detweilers are "combat worthy" or not, I have no intention of telling you at this point. On the other hand, while the Mesan Alignment may be crazy, and while it's particular version of insanity may lead it to do some things the rest of us would consider to be . . . suboptimal, they aren't stupid.

Beyond that: tum-te-tum-te-tuim.

kzt wrote:

Louis R wrote:1) no foreign traffic in Manticore B. ergo no way to include Weyland in the attack. not at all a good idea.

It's a lot less than the distance they flew from the actual drop off point. They appear be perfectly capable of navigating from the junction to Manticore B. It just makes timing more complex.

What you lose are the strikes at the actual construction platforms and other orbital sites other then the stations. I suspect that is how things like the RMN's main supply of stored missiles got all blowed up.

But it would be a totally devastating attack even without the missile pods, and if they had executed it two months earlier the RMN would now have a large fleet of 90% complete ships. 90% complete ships that are missing all the parts that allow them to be effective combat vessels, like missiles and sensors.

All together, that would have been a huge win for the MAN.

The problem with using merchant ships to launch the missiles is that 1; there is a chance they might be inspected, and 2; those merchant ships can't leave the well traveled space lanes to drop off their cargo. There is a much higher chance those missiles would have been detected during or after the launch because of the pathway they would have to take. ie through the most heavily traveled parts of Manticore system space. The LDs likely came in then moved above or below the system elliptic so the missiles could come on at a degree that didn't take them through the normally traveled areas of space by system and interstellar merchant/warships. This would give them the equivalent of an up the kilt or down the throat shot with a much lower chance of being detected, or having the wedges of a merchant/warship accidentally running into the missiles. Remember the Manties didn't see them coming at all because they came in at an angle no one would have anticipated. Not to mention coming in above or below the stations would allow for the missiles to spread out and target the parts of the stations/factories they were aimed at.

Also the merchant ships could be traced.

So merchant ships which could be stopped and searched (can't have them moving slaves or contraband through SEM space now can we?) and traced if any attack was made (not to mention the crews would have to be willing to die for the MAlign and keep their mouths shut if captured. I don't think the MAlign would risk that kind of security breech). There will be a paper trail somewhere that could have led to clues the Malign didn't want anyone to know about, verse a stealth launch on ships no one even knows exists with missiles that are incredibly stealthy even by SEM standards coming in at an angle of attack outside of the normally traveled lanes. HHmm... I'd go for the stealth insertion and attack. Better chance of succeeding unless you somehow trust the crews of the merchant ships to keep their mouths shut and be willing to die for your cause.

Question... My understanding is that the stored missile supply is intact, but that the ability to produce any MORE was taken out. Did I miss something?

Pretty much yes. They have to rebuild their capacity to make more missiles. Beowulf is going to be doing that and will be supplying the RMN those missiles soon, but atm, all of the missiles the RMN has is all they got. If they shoot their magazines dry, they are sol.

Here is some evidence from David Weber that the Detweilers are spider drive ships. In viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2572&p=52902&hilit=detweiler+spider#p52902:

runsforcelery wrote:Darius is of significance because it's allowed the Mesan Alignment to build a fleet (or to be building a fleet) of spider-drive warships mounting technology no one else even suspected existed prior to Oyster Bay.
. . .
And now that that element of surprise has been compromised, the mere physical location of Darius would be significant only because it would permit the Alliance to attack the new technology at its source. Admittedly, that would be incredibly valuable, but even if they managed to find Darius and strike it before the Detweiler-class ships were completed, it still wouldn't prevent "another Oyster Bay."

SWM wrote:Yes--impeller rings for generating Warshawski sails. As I already said. Not for generating impeller wedges.

You know, no one said they couldn't have drive rings on expanding ram systems which can be extended from the front and the back. Trickey and mass intensive, but doable.

Theemile wrote:You know, no one said they couldn't have drive rings on expanding ram systems which can be extended from the front and the back. Trickey and mass intensive, but doable.

The peeps did it.

SharkHunter wrote:Question... My understanding is that the stored missile supply is intact, but that the ability to produce any MORE was taken out. Did I miss something?

MoH Chapter 30

"Whoever planned this operation, obviously knew exactly how to hurt us. Not only did they take out our building capacity, but when they destroyed Hephaestus and Vulcan, they also destroyed our missile production lines. I remain confident that the missiles we have deployed are superior to those of any probable enemy, but the ones we already have aboard ship, or aboard ammunition ships assigned to our fleet formations, are all the missiles we have. All we're going to have until we can rebuild our production facilities . . . which is why I said we'd need the Trevor's Star facilities for something else even more than for rebuilding our Manticoran yards. At this time, I have no firm estimate for how long it's going to take to get Trevor's Star up for missile production—we're still inventorying our mobile repair and construction capabilities, and I'm sure some of them will help—but I'll be extraordinarily surprised if we can get new missile lines into production in less than ten T-months. And even then, it's going to take us a long time to ramp back up to anywhere near the production levels we had yesterday. Given the fact that our tactical advantages are so hugely bound up with our missile superiority, and given the numbers of missiles required to destroy or mission-kill even a Solarian ship-of-the-wall, that means our ability to take the war to the League has just evaporated. In fact, while it's likely we have enough Apollos already in inventory to finish off the Republic if it comes to that, doing so would leave us with essentially none for use against the League for almost an entire T-year."

Emphasis in the original.

Long post of multiple replies

JeffEngel wrote:

fallsfromtrees wrote:One has to wonder, if without a wedge, the Lenny Dets are vulnerable to something with a wedge sweeping across it, as what happened to Tepes when a pinnace brought up its wedge inside the boat bay.

It's a plate of tens of thousands of gravities of twisted space. It's gonna eat ya if you haven't got some sort of cover against it, and a spider drive is nothing more than an array of tractor beams dragging you along the alpha wall. The problem isn't going to be wrecking something like that with a wedge, it's going to be getting the wedge into contact with it, what with space being big and it being (to some degree) hard to spot.

In the Oyster Bay attack, the tugs working around the stations were able to shred the fragments that were headed to the planets. The tugs had hugely powerful tractors, but nothing suggests that they are powerful enough to pierce the Alpha Wall into Hyperspace. Per Mission of Honor quote below, the tractors on the spiders are powerful enough to be considered energy weapons at short range. So, not only would you have the normal defenses, but the drive as well. And as another poster mentions, the Warshawski Sails can be brought up in normal space to provide a disc that is invulnerable to fire and other ships as well.

In fact, at a sufficiently short range, they would have made quite serviceable energy weapons, because these focused, directional beams were powerful enough to create their own tiny foci—effectively, holes in the "real" universe—in which space itself was so highly stressed that the beams punched clear through to the alpha wall, the interface between normal-space and hyper-space.

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Jonathan_S wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:That last brings up something else I've been thinking:

The MAN may not have all the advantages the GA has when it comes to spider drive detection. They do certainly have going the fact that they built it, know how it works, and have been in a position to consider how to look for it and try for a lot longer. On the other hand, it works by an interaction with the alpha wall. FTL communications work by an interaction with the alpha wall. The GA has been making leaps and bounds listening for and generating twangs on the alpha wall with increasing speed and delicacy for the last couple decades. I wonder if that may not give them an avenue on spider drive detection the MAN did not count on.

You might be on to something. Certainly there's been plenty of speculation that the ability to transmit highly modulated ripples along the alpha wall, and detect faint versions of same (inherent in high bandwidth FTL comms) might translate into some kind of active-sonar like detection system.

Speculation that while the spider leg is "grabbing" the alpha wall that it might do something that could cause those comm ripples to distort or reflect.


Reflection would obviously be best, since a single ship or drone could both send and listen for reflected echos. But even causing 'in-line' distortion could be a lot better than nothing. Sure you'd need more platforms, constantly talking to each other waiting to see distorted ripples, but it still beats the heck out of hoping you stumble across the highly directional waste heat of a spider ship.

But FTL comms have been public for a decade or more, so I think the MAN has info on this angle. There are still limits on transmission range for FTL comms, so I would expect FTL Spider Drive Detectors would have a limited range as well. Since RunsforCelery doesn't like writing war porn, for which I am grateful, I have a feeling the detectors will be short ranged due to Honorverse physics which will give the LDs a chance in battle.

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n7axw wrote:So far the spiders have been used once in the shark form at OB with the victim not having any idea at all what to look for or even that such an attack was possible.

We've been talking a lot about the stealth and there is no question at all but what it is very good. But do we really know that it is as infallible as we seem to be assuming? Benjamin Detweiler in his after action report to Albrecht wasn't so certain. When Albrecht presented the idea of an attack on the fleet at Trevor's Star, he warned that he didn't know that the Manties wouldn't be able to detect the Sharks now that they have been hit once and know what to look for. Would the MAlign's stealth really be proof against a hoard of Ghost rider drones? At this point, we really don't know.

Then there is Hamish's after action report to Elizabeth in which he states that he believes they have identified the hyper footprint of the attackers, that they would be able to flood the area with Ghost rider and that it should be sufficient to interdict intruders and that he felt confident within reason that the Yawata Strike couldn't be repeated.

None of this is definitive, of course. But I do find myself wondering if perhaps we might be assuming a bit too much about the MAlign's capabilities.

Don

Not every star system is protected by such huge sensor arrays like the Manticore system is. So not everyone will have the warning Home Fleet would. Also he was discussing follow up attacks with Sharks, not LDs. All we really know is the LDs are much, much larger and have more capable weapons than the Sharks (Graser Torp launchers at the minimum). It is possible that with LDs, the MAN *may* have been more willing for followup attacks.

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Theemile wrote:What keeps hitting me is OB really didn't NEED the Sharks or the LDs.

OK - hold with me for a second.

"Legimate" Freighters lining up to use the wormhole disgorged the Frigate sized Ghosts for thier scouting mission - and no one noticed.

Why not use freighters to drop off the Graser torps in a similiar manner as the ghosts? over a week or 2 they could be dropped off by passing various, unrelated freighters and move to a pre-arranged, out of the way rendevous point, then together swarming the stations at pre-arranged times weeks later. The Ghosts would still need to do last minute recon and build the guidance platform, but no LDs and no Sharks. No worry of a deep space intercept. No 2 month accel to .2C. No way to figure out who dropped them off from the annonymous 2 month old traffic lists.

The Ghosts didn't really run through the middle of the Manticore space industry, but went along the edges to gather the necessary intel. By having the attack pods and GTorps hit the system at .2c, it made for a shorter detection window before the attack opened.


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Louis R wrote:the sails project radially in the plane of the nodes.

armour schemes based on sails start with the assumption that the only direction safe from incoming fire is the plane of the sail. IOW, that they aren't there at all. in single-ship duels, it might be possible to prevent your opponent firing at your flanks, but i wouldn't count on it. in multi-ship battles, trying to do that is a great way to get a graser through a power room: in most situations there will be somebody who can get a shot at your side.

JeffEngel wrote:Thanks. Hmmm. Warshawski sails can be put up in normal space; you do that just before going through a wormhole. They're also used much as wedges are in (rare) grav wave battles as invulnerable plates.

Sooo... could spider drive ships be counting on using Warshawski sails in normal space as part of their defenses? It's odd that they wouldn't have an armor scheme to take advantage of that - and I'm curious where the sails appear relative to the ship - but it sounds like something they could possibly have available to account for a readiness to use them against other capital ships.

Well we know the LDs are much, much larger than the Sharks as the Sharks had to strap on the GTorps and the LDs will fire them internally from magazines. So the armoring scheme is potentially much tougher than any SD or Fort would be designed with as the wedge imparts a volume restriction on a conventional ship. As for how tough the LDs armoring scheme can be made, we don't know until the next book (sob). But you would use the Sail just like an SD rolls ship to present the belly or roof of the wedge to incoming fire. And a wedge doesn't protect a ship in all axis either.

Kizarvexis wrote:Well we know the LDs are much, much larger than the Sharks as the Sharks had to strap on the GTorps and the LDs will fire them internally from magazines. So the armoring scheme is potentially much tougher than any SD or Fort would be designed with as the wedge imparts a volume restriction on a conventional ship. As for how tough the LDs armoring scheme can be made, we don't know until the next book (sob). But you would use the Sail just like an SD rolls ship to present the belly or roof of the wedge to incoming fire. And a wedge doesn't protect a ship in all axis either.

I think that a modern fort's armoring scheme is approximately about as strong as a Leonard Detweiler's armoring scheme is, assuming that the two are about the same mass and size.

A modern fort, if it wants to fire in all aspects, has to drop its wedge and rely on its bubble sidewall for the first layer of passive defense, with the second layer being the physical armor, just like a Leonard Detweiler has to stop using the spider drive and rely on its bubble sidewall as the first layer of passive defense if it wants to defend against incoming fire (assuming that it has been localized) and the physical armor scheme as its second layer.

A Leonard Detweiler can be roughly be compared to both a modern fortress and a oversized super-dreadnaught.

Here is a comparison between the three (drive systems and armoring scheme only), based on what we know from text, extrapolating from text* and what we have inferred** based on David's comments (in particular, the one where he said "what makes you think they can't use wormholes", or words to that effect in reference to the spider drive ships, combined with what we as readers know what equipment is required to safely transit a wormhole, and what else can be done with the equipment necessary to safely transit a wormhole).

Modern super-dreadnought or pod-laying super-dreadnaught:

Alpha nodes
Hyper generator
Beta nodes (or Beta squared nodes* for the latest Manticore/Grayson SDs or SDPs)
No bubble sidewall generators
Standard sidewall generators for use with the wedge
Bow/Sternwall generators* with Buckler capability* (for the latest Manticore/Grayson SDs or SDPs)
Outer armored scheme: Only along sides and bow and stern except for systems that cannot be armored (Alpha and Beta/Beta squared nodes, gravitic/electronic communication/fire control/ECM/ECCM, etc.). Heaviest outer armor on bow and stern. Top and bottom not externally armored, ship relies on impenetrability of wedge when it is running.
Core armor scheme: Faces all aspects*
Inertial compensator: Imposes maximum mass limitation on SD or SDP to maintain continuous acceleration capability far in excess of what can be damped by gravity plates.
Standard gravity plates

Modern fortress:

No alpha nodes
No hyper generator
Beta nodes (or Beta squared nodes* for the latest Manticore/Grayson forts)
Bubble sidewall generators
Standard sidewall generators for use with the wedge
Bow/Sternwall generators* with Buckler capability* (for the latest Manticore/Grayson forts)
Outer armor scheme: Armored in all aspects except for systems that cannot be armored. (Beta/Beta squared nodes, gravitic/electronic communication/fire control/ECM/ECCM, etc.)
Core armor scheme: Faces all aspects*
No inertial compensator: Removes mass limit on fortress, but limits acceleration to what can be damped by gravity plates.
Standard gravity plates

Leonard Detweiler class:

Alpha nodes** (for going through wormholes** and use in gravity waves**)
Hyper generator
No beta nodes
Spider drive
Bubble sidewall generators
No standard sidewall generators
No bow/sternwall generators
Outer armor scheme: Armored in all aspects except for systems that cannot be armored. (Spider drive emitters, gravitic/electronic communication/fire control/ECM/ECCM, etc.)
Core armor scheme: Faces all aspects*
No use of inertial compensator under spider drive (normal space and in hyperspace outside of gravity waves: Removes mass limit on Leonard Detweiler, but limits acceleration to what can be damped by gravity plates.
Much more powerful (and massive) gravity plates allow higher constant acceleration than standard gravity plates, but much inferior acceleration compared to a wedge and inertial compensator.
Inertial compensator**: For use in hyperspace in a gravity wave, using alpha nodes** for Warshawski sails.

Remember that not having alpha nodes, a hyper generator and an inertial compensator allows forts to carry much more armor, weapons and ammunition compared to a conventional SD or SDP, plus the bubble sidewall generators. This was true both of Manticore's Junction Command forts and of Havenite forts (compared to conventional SDs) when Admiral McQueen was recalled to Haven to take over as the head of the People's Republic Navy.

The one area where I am inferring the most is the core armor scheme on a SD or SDP. I assume that it faces all aspects, unlike the outer armor scheme on an SD or SDP

Vince wrote:
The one area where I am inferring the most is the core armor scheme on a SD or SDP. I assume that it faces all aspects, unlike the outer armor scheme on an SD or SDP

Nice rundown, by the way, though I snipped it to save electrons and mouse scroll buttons. About this last though: Why do you assume the core armor faces all aspects? I'd think that the tops and bottoms could be skipped, since (barring truly freak hits) anything that would have been coming from that direction would have been stopped by the wedge.

For that matter, I'd also think that the forward portion could be thinner, since anything coming from that direction would have had to get through the entire forward hammerhead, which isn't armor as such but does represent a good piece of protection coverage as a matter of course. (The aft direction is the really vulnerable one, because the pods go out that way.)

Also - because hey, this is as good a place as any to ask - bucklers: do they need the wedge to work? Because if they don't, spider drive ships could be fitted with such things to project very well defended shields along the threat axes as another passive defense.

JeffEngel wrote:

Vince wrote:
The one area where I am inferring the most is the core armor scheme on a SD or SDP. I assume that it faces all aspects, unlike the outer armor scheme on an SD or SDP

Nice rundown, by the way, though I snipped it to save electrons and mouse scroll buttons. About this last though: Why do you assume the core armor faces all aspects? I'd think that the tops and bottoms could be skipped, since (barring truly freak hits) anything that would have been coming from that direction would have been stopped by the wedge.

For that matter, I'd also think that the forward portion could be thinner, since anything coming from that direction would have had to get through the entire forward hammerhead, which isn't armor as such but does represent a good piece of protection coverage as a matter of course. (The aft direction is the really vulnerable one, because the pods go out that way.)

Also - because hey, this is as good a place as any to ask - bucklers: do they need the wedge to work? Because if they don't, spider drive ships could be fitted with such things to project very well defended shields along the threat axes as another passive defense.

There is no hammerhead on the LD, which is why there has to be armor. Also,I think he is assuming no wedge (no beta nodes), so armor on the top and bottom.