Return Of The Frigate

fallsfromtrees wrote:

Tenshinai wrote:BTW, do even KNOW for sure that the Detweiler SDs use spider drive?

SWM wrote:Yes, we do. The Shark was a testbed for building the Detweilers. The original Oyster Bay plan called for using the Detweilers instead of the Sharks, but they weren't ready when the Alignment decided to launch Oyster Bay early. The Detweilers are definitely spider drive ships.

JeffEngel wrote:Have we figured out the point of building sneak-attack, cannot-stand-up-to-anything-that-can-see-them units on an SD scale anyway? Is it purely economies of scale?

Or is there some trick, of which there hasn't been a hint (that I know of, I encourage you to remind me!), that would make these huge spider drive units an actual wall of battle?

I don't think we have been told anything about the Detweilers except that the Sharks were originally intended as the training testbeds for them.

If the Sharks are very small versions of the Detweilers, then we are looking at capital ships that are able to cripple a system by destroying it's infrasturcture and and kill any shipping that happens to be relativly slow or parked.
Recall that the Alignment was expecting Haven to swoop in and take Manticore after Oyster Bay. They really didn't even talk about what was "expected" to happen to Grayson. They hit Grayson because Grayson was effectively [don't tell the Graysons:) } a remote industrial and warship building center for Manticore technology that could continue to build new ships, repair damaged ones and produce all the spare parts and consumable equipment plus missle weapons compatable with the RMN warships. The Alignment DIDN'T CARE what happend to Grayson After Oyster bay. They probably presumed that Haven would over run it after it took the Manticore System.

The Alignment DOESN'T CARE how many systems get their orbital or in-system infrastructures gutted. Not even how much of a given system's SDF would get caught with the Graser Torps and all the ballistic weapons they throw in. It doesn't matter how many people get killed. They only want the changes of the Detweiler plan to get put into operation--eventualy- amoung the survivors which are considered -at best- raw material and slaves.

So, a honking big undetectable ship that can sleet destruction though any given system is just fine. The RF is -eventualy- going to show up and "save" these people from all the nasty people out there. They won't evey put a price tag on doing that, just "help" with the medical and ethics systems.

Brigade XO wrote:

fallsfromtrees wrote:
If the Sharks are very small versions of the Detweilers, then we are looking at capital ships that are able to cripple a system by destroying it's infrasturcture and and kill any shipping that happens to be relativly slow or parked.
Recall that the Alignment was expecting Haven to swoop in and take Manticore after Oyster Bay. They really didn't even talk about what was "expected" to happen to Grayson. They hit Grayson because Grayson was effectively [don't tell the Graysons:) } a remote industrial and warship building center for Manticore technology that could continue to build new ships, repair damaged ones and produce all the spare parts and consumable equipment plus missle weapons compatable with the RMN warships. The Alignment DIDN'T CARE what happend to Grayson After Oyster bay. They probably presumed that Haven would over run it after it took the Manticore System.

The Alignment DOESN'T CARE how many systems get their orbital or in-system infrastructures gutted. Not even how much of a given system's SDF would get caught with the Graser Torps and all the ballistic weapons they throw in. It doesn't matter how many people get killed. They only want the changes of the Detweiler plan to get put into operation--eventualy- amoung the survivors which are considered -at best- raw material and slaves.

So, a honking big undetectable ship that can sleet destruction though any given system is just fine. The RF is -eventualy- going to show up and "save" these people from all the nasty people out there. They won't evey put a price tag on doing that, just "help" with the medical and ethics systems.

The Alignment failed to take into account exactly how much more experience grayson has in rapidly creating space born industries over the rest of the explored galexy due to the needs to expand the orbital farms to feed there populations which requires massive ore mining, refining, smelting, assembling. plus the grayson system isn't exactly easy pickings with the protectors own.
Oyster Bay was at most an inconvenience to grayson.
left to there self and investments by harrington and the crown grayson could have the entire blackbird yard rebuilt manned and new construction layed down within a year. they built the Honor Harrington and her sisters within a year and an SD(P) has a lot more complexity then grayson style drydocks.

If Haven had taken managed(agenst the fact that harrington was in command of home fleet) there forces would've been whittled down to where the protectors own could smash any forces they sent agenst grayson because after the attack on manticore they had very little left in ships. Oyster Bay had massive requirements on stealth and nothing is truly invisible and after that attack grayson would most likely expand there RD net 2 fold and beef it up so any MAN fleet trying to make a surprise attack on the grayson system would run right into mycroft controlled Apollo swarm light hours away from anything important

also amazing how fast this deviated from the original train of thought

Mirta Layl wrote:Oyster Bay was at most an inconvenience to grayson.
left to there self and investments by harrington and the crown grayson could have the entire blackbird yard rebuilt manned and new construction layed down within a year. they built the Honor Harrington and her sisters within a year and an SD(P) has a lot more complexity then grayson style drydocks.

Nope.
http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/si ... gton/281/0

wow there exists an author that bothers to get involved with discussions about his works and remembers enough about this works so he can pop people balloons faster then a bullet hell. i cede the floor*bows out*

Mirta Layl wrote:wow there exists an author that bothers to get involved with discussions about his works and remembers enough about this works so he can pop people balloons faster then a bullet hell. i cede the floor*bows out*

But, please do not leave. Puruse the Pearls then jump back into the conversation - You'll find we don't bite - well, too hard or too often

Theemile wrote:
But, please do not leave. Puruse the Pearls then jump back into the conversation - You'll find we don't bite - well, too hard or too often

Unless you start sounding like Lord Skimper. Then it's feeding time

But seriously, the Pearls are worth reading just for the information in them. Aiding your participation in the discussions here is just a bonus.

Mirta Layl wrote:wow there exists an author that bothers to get involved with discussions about his works and remembers enough about this works so he can pop people balloons faster then a bullet hell. i cede the floor*bows out*

We've all made what seemed like perfectly logical arguments and had David cut us off at the knees. Virtually always it's something inside the books that you could know, the whole industrial economy stuff is really only in David's head or notes.

And I'm personally not very impressed by some of his internal logic on this particular topic, but I'm not writing the books. So it really doesn't matter what any of us think. He has a plan going forward and we are along for the ride and I'm planning on hanging on as best I can.

But yeah, you should read the pearls. It really explains a lot of otherwise opaque stuff.

SWM wrote:Yes, we do. The Shark was a testbed for building the Detweilers. The original Oyster Bay plan called for using the Detweilers instead of the Sharks, but they weren't ready when the Alignment decided to launch Oyster Bay early. The Detweilers are definitely spider drive ships.

That´s not proof. It is potentially suggestive, but definitely not close to ironclad proof and certainty.

We have no clue how the original Oyster Bay operation was meant to look like.
The impression given was that it had been planned long before there existed functional spider drive ships at all.


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That, to my mind, is really what screws them. Prior to Apollo (or Mycroft) if you could kill the nearby units (so they couldn't take over fire control) an MDM missile swarm at extreme range (such as from system defense pods that you'd stuck past) was so inaccurate you had a decent chance of evading.

Be reminded, that a lot of the long range inaccuracy comes from missiles not having good enough sensors and electronics to guesstimate where inside a wedge a ship actually is.
Without the wedge hiding it, by being the thing that is easily detected and by pure signal strength creates some fog over the ship, well the majority of missiles once close enough should have little difficulty in locking onto the ship itself.

Negating the need for the controlcircuit of the firing ship.


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The Alignment DOESN'T CARE how many systems get their orbital or in-system infrastructures gutted. Not even how much of a given system's SDF would get caught with the Graser Torps and all the ballistic weapons they throw in. It doesn't matter how many people get killed. They only want the changes of the Detweiler plan to get put into operation--eventualy- amoung the survivors which are considered -at best- raw material and slaves.

So, a honking big undetectable ship that can sleet destruction though any given system is just fine. The RF is -eventualy- going to show up and "save" these people from all the nasty people out there. They won't evey put a price tag on doing that, just "help" with the medical and ethics systems.

Indeed, massmurder and -destruction from unseen sources that can be safely condemned by the RF is what the kind of design upscaled Shark ships would suggest.


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wow there exists an author that bothers to get involved with discussions about his works and remembers enough about this works so he can pop people balloons faster then a bullet hell. i cede the floor*bows out*

David is quite active on the forum under the name Runsforcelery.

Tenshinai wrote:David is quite active on the forum under the name Runsforcelery.

Well, for some value of "active".

He often isn't around for a few months, then will post a bunch for a few days or a few weeks after he turns in a book (or something?), then he runs back to his writers garret to go pay more bills.

Wish he was here more to poke holes in our thinking...

Tenshinai wrote:

SWM wrote:Yes, we do. The Shark was a testbed for building the Detweilers. The original Oyster Bay plan called for using the Detweilers instead of the Sharks, but they weren't ready when the Alignment decided to launch Oyster Bay early. The Detweilers are definitely spider drive ships.

That´s not proof. It is potentially suggestive, but definitely not close to ironclad proof and certainty.

We have no clue how the original Oyster Bay operation was meant to look like.
The impression given was that it had been planned long before there existed functional spider drive ships at all.

I vaguely recall something somewhere(it may have been previous speculation here on the forums) about the original Oyster Bay targeting both Haven and the Manticoran Alliance. SD(P)s with MDMs were going to trash the League Navy regardless; OB was launched early and only against the MA because the RMN took the wraps off Apollo and were almost in a position to eliminate the Havenite Navy and all associated works, freeing it to face the League squarely.

It would make sense that the Mesans would need/want a "far bigger number" of Detweiler-class ships than the 28 Sharks they had to strike at Haven's more dispersed shipyards.