Question about Beowulf tactics

I think you are overly optimistic on the SLN getting the act together with that number of ships in so short a time.

There is also the amunition problme for the SLN. We don't know if ANY of the SLN forces that would be available in a 20-25 day time frame have Catafracts or the "improved" versions in pods that Filerta had to wait for prior to making the last leg of his trip to Manticore. Without those much longer ranged (for the SLN) they would have to get a lot closer to Beowulf to engage. Even with the possible tactic of including some launches in the early volleys of things that will go ballistic early to make an EE type strike on the planet, they are have to go in and actually engage to make that work. There is NO WAY that the BSDF is going to let an SLN task force or two swan in on the planet to "observe" or bully their way into range of the orbitals.

It is possible that the Mandarins and the SLN senior command throw a force at Beowulf that is actually relativly lighter on SDs but has a lot more CA and BC sized ships. What they (think) they have to deal with is max 60 BSDF SDs since they think that Manticore will hold its warships out where they can't be accused of interfearing with the Beowulf vote.

Hi guys,

Personally I think that as of the end of COG the attack had already occurred and was beaten off and so is no longer of concern. But we did discuss the idea exhaustively and the results were more or less inconclusive, with no one being persuaded who was not already convinced. So... for the purpose of aiding and abetting Hutch's discussion, I am going to presume that Beowulf is still waiting on the attack.

To review Honor's discussion with her uncle Jacques, she seemed to be worried about the appearance that Beowulf's vulnerable and the two month window (at least a couple of months) before Mycroft is up and going. So there we have it. While work on Mycroft is ongoing even as this discussion is going on, there is an additional two months of vulnerability before Beowulf is defended.

So what to do? One thought might be to move in Sag Cs instead of Invictuses with enough pods to produce the force level that did the job at Spindle. Sag-Cs would at least look less intimidating than Invictuses. But given the political constraints being honored here, I am not sure that the difference is enough to matter.

Another thought might be to put the Invictuses out in hyper in stealth and that is where they stay until the "window of vulnerability" is past. If you can't see 'em and you don't know they are there, nobody is going to be intimidated by their presence, right? Set it up with four task forces at strategic spots around the planet, more or less like Giscard did to Honor at Solon, so you have an interception vector no matter where the SLN decides to come in. And then when the attack occurs, converge on the enemy with all four task forces.

Finally, there is the idea of microjumping the SDPs in from the junction. I am not going to comment to this because I really don't have a good feel for the time constraints and how it would work....

Don

fallsfromtrees wrote:There has to be at least 20 days worth of integrating all of the disparate elements that have been drawn from so many distant sources, as well as the pissing match between all of the various admirals as to who is going to be in charge or what. Granted you have allocated 9 days for that - Even Haven or Manticore couldn't have shaken down that type of ad hoc group in less than 3 weeks. In addition, Beowulf is 60 ly from Sol. At your estimated 6ly/day that is 10 days, not 8, So we have added 13 days to your schedule, making it day 55 that the attack goes in. Do you really think that there won't have been some major portion of Moriarty in place by day 55? The sollies are toast, butter side down.

I don't see the delay in integrating. Unlike Haven and Manticore, Battle Fleet is one organization, operating under a single command structure and chain of command. They don't have to invent new protocols and train personnel to interact with unfamiliar personnel and ships that can (or can't) do certain things.

Can't argue the distance, but I was always under the impression that 'normal' transit times from Beowulf to Sol were about one week. But I may be thinking of DB's transit.

And will 80% of Mycroft equal 80% effectiveness? Only RFC can tell us.

munroburton wrote: *snip*

What if the SLN split up into two task forces, one of which takes position in the alpha band as close to the terminus as they can calculate? Possibly using one of their "newsy" dispatch boats to 'mark the spot' for them.

The second task force feints an attack on Beowulf and brings the GA SD(P)s running into energy range of the first SLN task force waiting in hyper.

Hell of a long shot. But if it works...

But that would take, imagination, daring, and guts...something we haven't seen in a SLN BF Officer to date.

Brigade XO wrote:I think you are overly optimistic on the SLN getting the act together with that number of ships in so short a time.

There is also the amunition problme for the SLN. We don't know if ANY of the SLN forces that would be available in a 20-25 day time frame have Catafracts or the "improved" versions in pods that Filerta had to wait for prior to making the last leg of his trip to Manticore. Without those much longer ranged (for the SLN) they would have to get a lot closer to Beowulf to engage. Even with the possible tactic of including some launches in the early volleys of things that will go ballistic early to make an EE type strike on the planet, they are have to go in and actually engage to make that work. There is NO WAY that the BSDF is going to let an SLN task force or two swan in on the planet to "observe" or bully their way into range of the orbitals.

I concur that they would go in with their 'old' missiles, but SLN planning is that they would only encounter the Beowulf SDF, who don't have Manty missiles (as far as the Sollies know) and won't outrange them (famous last words).

It is possible that the Mandarins and the SLN senior command throw a force at Beowulf that is actually relatively lighter on SDs but has a lot more CA and BC sized ships. What they (think) they have to deal with is max 60 BSDF SDs since they think that Manticore will hold its warships out where they can't be accused of interfering with the Beowulf vote.

I think Beowulf has 36 SD's, not 60...but I could be wrong.

As for lighter forces...why? SLN CA's and BC's aren't going to be survivable against Beowulf SD's, even if the 'Wulfers' have no better armament than Sollie SD's.

Brigade XO wrote:I think you are overly optimistic on the SLN getting the act together with that number of ships in so short a time.

There is also the amunition problme for the SLN. We don't know if ANY of the SLN forces that would be available in a 20-25 day time frame have Catafracts or the "improved" versions in pods that Filerta had to wait for prior to making the last leg of his trip to Manticore. Without those much longer ranged (for the SLN) they would have to get a lot closer to Beowulf to engage. Even with the possible tactic of including some launches in the early volleys of things that will go ballistic early to make an EE type strike on the planet, they are have to go in and actually engage to make that work. There is NO WAY that the BSDF is going to let an SLN task force or two swan in on the planet to "observe" or bully their way into range of the orbitals.

It is possible that the Mandarins and the SLN senior command throw a force at Beowulf that is actually relativly lighter on SDs but has a lot more CA and BC sized ships. What they (think) they have to deal with is max 60 BSDF SDs since they think that Manticore will hold its warships out where they can't be accused of interfearing with the Beowulf vote.

Minor nit: As of A Rising Thunder, Beowulf has only 36 active SDs in the Beowulf SDF (plus a few in for refit).

A Rising Thunder, Chapter 23 wrote:“Status change!” Quill announced an instant later, and Tsang’s right hand clenched on her chair arm as thirty-six impeller signatures appeared on her plot, roughly nine million kilometers from Adrianne Warshawski . . . and directly between her and the Beowulf Terminus.
“Thirty-six superdreadnoughts at eight-point-eight-seven million kilometers,” Quill confirmed. “Impellers active. I can’t tell yet if their side walls are up.”
“Are you actually proposing to fire on units of the Solarian Navy?!” Tsang demanded, eyes blazing at Holmon-Sanders.

Boldface is my emphasis.

Hutch wrote:

munroburton wrote: *snip*

What if the SLN split up into two task forces, one of which takes position in the alpha band as close to the terminus as they can calculate? Possibly using one of their "newsy" dispatch boats to 'mark the spot' for them.

The second task force feints an attack on Beowulf and brings the GA SD(P)s running into energy range of the first SLN task force waiting in hyper.

Hell of a long shot. But if it works...

But that would take, imagination, daring, and guts...something we haven't seen in a SLN BF Officer to date.

We've seen at least one SLN Battle Fleet officer with imagination, daring and guts--Captain Daud al-Fanudahi. We just haven't seen any SLL Battle Fleet flag officers with imagination, daring and guts.

Hutch wrote:

fallsfromtrees wrote:There has to be at least 20 days worth of integrating all of the disparate elements that have been drawn from so many distant sources, as well as the pissing match between all of the various admirals as to who is going to be in charge or what. Granted you have allocated 9 days for that - Even Haven or Manticore couldn't have shaken down that type of ad hoc group in less than 3 weeks. In addition, Beowulf is 60 ly from Sol. At your estimated 6ly/day that is 10 days, not 8, So we have added 13 days to your schedule, making it day 55 that the attack goes in. Do you really think that there won't have been some major portion of Moriarty in place by day 55? The sollies are toast, butter side down.

I don't see the delay in integrating. Unlike Haven and Manticore, Battle Fleet is one organization, operating under a single command structure and chain of command. They don't have to invent new protocols and train personnel to interact with unfamiliar personnel and ships that can (or can't) do certain things.

That figure is, I take it, figuring on how long it takes scratch forces from within a single navy to get to work together all that effectively. I don't recall if we've had a case too closely parallel in the Honorverse for comparison. Assembly of forces for Operation Icarus would have been one of the better likely times; Eighth Fleet's notoriously long time being put together (over, what, Honor Among Enemies, In Enemy Hands, and into Echoes of Honor...) wasn't mostly that at all, and Thunderbolt had forces with extra time on account of waiting for word before being unleashed.

But one fine example from RFC's Starfire novels (I'd guess their fleets take about as long to shake down as Honorverse ones) would be the larger force prepared by the Khanate of Orion Navy to respond to the Arachnid incursion in the Kleian Chain in On Death Ground. That one took a number of weeks before the admiral was confident that they'd all move out in the same direction on the same day, while people-eating bugs were moving along a chain of systems with billions of people in them. So there was quite a lot more urgency, and still no practical, responsible way of rushing it any more, and all that without international alliance command issues.

Having a common doctrine (and language, etc.) is going to help a whole lot, but those assumptions of weeks - very much plural, possibly still plural in months - of shaking down together before a formation is something to take into combat aren't out-of-place even then.

JeffEngel wrote:But one fine example from RFC's Starfire novels (I'd guess their fleets take about as long to shake down as Honorverse ones) would be the larger force prepared by the Khanate of Orion Navy to respond to the Arachnid incursion in the Kleian Chain in On Death Ground.

Isn't the Khanate the Felinoid empire? The term "Herding Cats" probably applies to forming a coherent fleet from Khanate forces.

munroburton wrote: *snip*

What if the SLN split up into two task forces, one of which takes position in the alpha band as close to the terminus as they can calculate? Possibly using one of their "newsy" dispatch boats to 'mark the spot' for them.

The second task force feints an attack on Beowulf and brings the GA SD(P)s running into energy range of the first SLN task force waiting in hyper.

Hell of a long shot. But if it works...

Hutch wrote:[But that would take, imagination, daring, and guts...something we haven't seen in a SLN BF Officer to date.

Vince wrote:We've seen at least one SLN Battle Fleet officer with imagination, daring and guts--Captain Daud al-Fanudahi. We just haven't seen any SLL Battle Fleet flag officers with imagination, daring and guts.

I sit corrected....