Fate of the Solarian League

That does lead to an interesting thought though. If some evildoers (or good doers for that matter) took out the Mandarin's simultaneously a la Theisman's *cough* dismissal of St. Just, in essence beheading the dragon, then what?

Yes, I know that doesn't win any wars or any battles. My question is more in the realm of "would the decapitation partially dismember the league" in the resulting power struggles?

Something along the lines of OFS sector governors saying in essence "to hell with Sol and the core worlds, we're keeping the loot for ourselves" and taking big chunks of Frontier Fleet with them to boot, or is the FF too centralized and attached elsewhere for that to happen?

Hm... besides several examples in Rozsak's navy... how many people do we know who've used the navy for non-flag advancement? I mean, there were _several_ admirals in the bridge they seize in Talbott. Those ships are severely populated.

As I see it, either a lot of those (non flag) officers and NCOs are qualified personnel without ambitions or they are from worlds were being an officer / NCO IS an ambition. So, they are not "loyalist", likely. Not to the extent of BF flag officers.

And let's not forget those other officers with... alternate sources of information. Which includes the whole Marine Corps, apparently (its COs, that is; still, that should be something). And FF seems to have some ideas.

So... I'm not sure you couldn't find personnel enough for... alternate systems of expression. Not necessarily a coup against the central government (which might be seen as pissing against the fire), but maybe something along the lines of Barregos.

Imagine a FF+Marine detachment arriving at Beowulf and saying (and meaning) they're there to protect the interests of the voters? Oh, no flag officers, sure, those are political appointments. Still...

Take care.

Ferran wrote:Hm... besides several examples in Rozsak's navy... how many people do we know who've used the navy for non-flag advancement? I mean, there were _several_ admirals in the bridge they seize in Talbott. Those ships are severely populated.

As I see it, either a lot of those (non flag) officers and NCOs are qualified personnel without ambitions or they are from worlds were being an officer / NCO IS an ambition. So, they are not "loyalist", likely. Not to the extent of BF flag officers.

And let's not forget those other officers with... alternate sources of information. Which includes the whole Marine Corps, apparently (its COs, that is; still, that should be something). And FF seems to have some ideas.

So... I'm not sure you couldn't find personnel enough for... alternate systems of expression. Not necessarily a coup against the central government (which might be seen as pissing against the fire), but maybe something along the lines of Barregos.

Imagine a FF+Marine detachment arriving at Beowulf and saying (and meaning) they're there to protect the interests of the voters? Oh, no flag officers, sure, those are political appointments. Still...

Take care.

Said detachment would be invited to leave - we are quite capable of protecting the interests of our voters without your help. Since FF doesn't appear to have any SDs, the 36 Beowulf SD's should be enough to see off any such FF detachment.

--snipping--

Ferran wrote:Hm... besides several examples in Rozsak's navy... how many people do we know who've used the navy for non-flag advancement? I mean, there were _several_ admirals in the bridge they seize in Talbott. Those ships are severely populated.
...
So... I'm not sure you couldn't find personnel enough for... alternate systems of expression. Not necessarily a coup against the central government (which might be seen as pissing against the fire), but maybe something along the lines of Barregos.
...
Imagine a FF+Marine detachment arriving at Beowulf and saying (and meaning) they're there to protect the interests of the voters? Oh, no flag officers, sure, those are political appointments. Still...

Take care.

I think it would partially depend on the manner of their arrival. For example, if the FF naval and Marine ships arrived, dropped their wedges, announced themselves and their purpose to the Beowulf SDF and then actively put themselves under Admiral Holmon-Sanders command, they'd likely survive. The assistance would be about as useful an offer as to install a screen door on a submarine, but as a political card maybe ok.

Otherwise, I think Beowulf would see it as a strong-arm attempt to influence the voters and politely inform the FF to quickly withdraw as unwelcome invaders a la Tsang's Battle Fleet ships.

I suppose in the second case, they could also invite the FF spacers to enjoy a free visit planet-side vacation with a promise of other transport to their home planets while the Beowulf SDF upgraded their ships to scrap metal...

SharkHunter wrote:--snipping--

Ferran wrote:Hm... besides several examples in Rozsak's navy... how many people do we know who've used the navy for non-flag advancement? I mean, there were _several_ admirals in the bridge they seize in Talbott. Those ships are severely populated.
...
So... I'm not sure you couldn't find personnel enough for... alternate systems of expression. Not necessarily a coup against the central government (which might be seen as pissing against the fire), but maybe something along the lines of Barregos.
...
Imagine a FF+Marine detachment arriving at Beowulf and saying (and meaning) they're there to protect the interests of the voters? Oh, no flag officers, sure, those are political appointments. Still...

Take care.

I think it would partially depend on the manner of their arrival. For example, if the FF naval and Marine ships arrived, dropped their wedges, announced themselves and their purpose to the Beowulf SDF and then actively put themselves under Admiral Holmon-Sanders command, they'd likely survive. The assistance would be about as useful an offer as to install a screen door on a submarine, but as a political card maybe ok.

Otherwise, I think Beowulf would see it as a strong-arm attempt to influence the voters and politely inform the FF to quickly withdraw as unwelcome invaders a la Tsang's Battle Fleet ships.

I suppose in the second case, they could also invite the FF spacers to enjoy a free visit planet-side vacation with a promise of other transport to their home planets while the Beowulf SDF upgraded their ships to scrap metal...

We know the Maya Sector (or rather its OFS governor and his naval commander) is planning to turn itself into a star nation, and that the Alignment has whispered similar ideas into the ears of a number of other governors. But once the League begins to break up, I can see the following scenario being played out a number of times:

1- Orders arrive on an OFS governors desk telling him to send his naval detachment to a fleet station for use against the Alliance
2- The governor says to the detachment commander "Look I've been ordered to send you to your deaths. Why not stay here? I'll be President/King/in charge and you can be defence minister!"
3a- the detachment commander thinks that's a better idea than being killed for no reason
3b- the detachment commander thinks that's a better idea than being killed for no reason, but thinks he would make a better King
3c- the detachment commander tells the governor that he is taking his ships to his home planet to help them break free from OFS, after which those members of his crews who want to do the same for their homes will be allowed to leave, and the governor and OFS can go to hell

nrellis wrote:
We know the Maya Sector (or rather its OFS governor and his naval commander) is planning to turn itself into a star nation, and that the Alignment has whispered similar ideas into the ears of a number of other governors. But once the League begins to break up, I can see the following scenario being played out a number of times:

1- Orders arrive on an OFS governors desk telling him to send his naval detachment to a fleet station for use against the Alliance
2- The governor says to the detachment commander "Look I've been ordered to send you to your deaths. Why not stay here? I'll be President/King/in charge and you can be defence minister!"
3a- the detachment commander thinks that's a better idea than being killed for no reason
3b- the detachment commander thinks that's a better idea than being killed for no reason, but thinks he would make a better King
3c- the detachment commander tells the governor that he is taking his ships to his home planet to help them break free from OFS, after which those members of his crews who want to do the same for their homes will be allowed to leave, and the governor and OFS can go to hell

3d-the detachment commander shoots the governor for treason and takes his detachment off to whereever to beat up on the neobarbs, and gets blown to dust bunnies.

fallsfromtrees wrote:

nrellis wrote:
We know the Maya Sector (or rather its OFS governor and his naval commander) is planning to turn itself into a star nation, and that the Alignment has whispered similar ideas into the ears of a number of other governors. But once the League begins to break up, I can see the following scenario being played out a number of times:

1- Orders arrive on an OFS governors desk telling him to send his naval detachment to a fleet station for use against the Alliance
2- The governor says to the detachment commander "Look I've been ordered to send you to your deaths. Why not stay here? I'll be President/King/in charge and you can be defence minister!"
3a- the detachment commander thinks that's a better idea than being killed for no reason
3b- the detachment commander thinks that's a better idea than being killed for no reason, but thinks he would make a better King
3c- the detachment commander tells the governor that he is taking his ships to his home planet to help them break free from OFS, after which those members of his crews who want to do the same for their homes will be allowed to leave, and the governor and OFS can go to hell

3d-the detachment commander shoots the governor for treason and takes his detachment off to whereever to beat up on the neobarbs, and gets blown to dust bunnies.

Never underestimate the power of idiocy in human affairs.

at bottom (for once) - HTM

fallsfromtrees wrote:below.

nrellis wrote:
We know the Maya Sector (or rather its OFS governor and his naval commander) is planning to turn itself into a star nation, and that the Alignment has whispered similar ideas into the ears of a number of other governors. But once the League begins to break up, I can see the following scenario being played out a number of times:

1- Orders arrive on an OFS governors desk telling him to send his naval detachment to a fleet station for use against the Alliance
2- The governor says to the detachment commander "Look I've been ordered to send you to your deaths. Why not stay here? I'll be President/King/in charge and you can be defence minister!"
3a- the detachment commander thinks that's a better idea than being killed for no reason
3b- the detachment commander thinks that's a better idea than being killed for no reason, but thinks he would make a better King
3c- the detachment commander tells the governor that he is taking his ships to his home planet to help them break free from OFS, after which those members of his crews who want to do the same for their homes will be allowed to leave, and the governor and OFS can go to hell

falls from trees replied:
3d-the detachment commander shoots the governor for treason and takes his detachment off to whereever to beat up on the neobarbs, and gets blown to dust bunnies.

Howard True Map-addict adds:
3e - the detachment commander shoots the governor for
treason, and then informs SLN-HQ that the number of
traitors in high places at his present station requires
him to keep his entire detachment on station! (To make
sure that the traitors are suppressed, you know.)
HTM

nrellis wrote:
We know the Maya Sector (or rather its OFS governor and his naval commander) is planning to turn itself into a star nation, and that the Alignment has whispered similar ideas into the ears of a number of other governors. But once the League begins to break up, I can see the following scenario being played out a number of times:

1- Orders arrive on an OFS governors desk telling him to send his naval detachment to a fleet station for use against the Alliance
2- The governor says to the detachment commander "Look I've been ordered to send you to your deaths. Why not stay here? I'll be President/King/in charge and you can be defence minister!"
3a- the detachment commander thinks that's a better idea than being killed for no reason
3b- the detachment commander thinks that's a better idea than being killed for no reason, but thinks he would make a better King
3c- the detachment commander tells the governor that he is taking his ships to his home planet to help them break free from OFS, after which those members of his crews who want to do the same for their homes will be allowed to leave, and the governor and OFS can go to hell

fallsfromtrees wrote:
3d-the detachment commander shoots the governor for treason and takes his detachment off to whereever to beat up on the neobarbs, and gets blown to dust bunnies.

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:3e - the detachment commander shoots the governor for
treason, and then informs SLN-HQ that the number of
traitors in high places at his present station requires
him to keep his entire detachment on station! (To make
sure that the traitors are suppressed, you know.)
HTM

Nice point - of course this starts to shade into 3b, as who is the detachment commander going to view as a adequate substitute for the deceased traitor.

There isn't really an Officer's Association in the SL. The closest parallel I can think of to the SL is the Ottoman Empire. When that fell, Ataturk took over. I think that growing cabal of junior intelligence officers is the closest thing their is to what you are envisioning.

phillies wrote:One can readily think of a large nation that some time back managed to lose battle after battle and have a massively corrupt leadership. And then there was a meeting of The Young Officers and an extended process that changed matters. One might propose that the author has put this shotgun on the wall, almost as clearly as the Tennis Court and Rob S Pierre.

We must wait to see if there is an Officers Association (All Services) with elected office-holders, and if one of the mandarins decides to use it as a parking slot for some cronies in need of sinecures, at which point (i) they lose the election due to the young officers organizing, (ii) they win via corruption, leading to disaffection, or (iii) they lose despite corruption, and are installed via mandarin decree, leading to serious disaffection between the military and the mandarins.