Emigrating to Torch or elsewhere in the alliances.

Within the SLN forces captured at Manticore & Spindle, there are undoubtably a large group of fully trained SLN spacers that aren't totally MAlign corrupted, etc. AKA they are honorable people. Granted, they're not trained at the MAlign level, but they do know their way around warship engine rooms, missile setups, laser and graser mounts, etc.

For the sake of discussion, let's presume that a small number don't have all that much allegiance to the SL (maybe from Verge systems) etc. and that each person would need to be screened very carefully (likely by 'cats) and kept away from sharp or exploding objects for a while.

Do you let them emigrate and begin to serve?

SharkHunter wrote:Within the SLN forces captured at Manticore & Spindle, there are undoubtably a large group of fully trained SLN spacers that aren't totally MAlign corrupted, etc. AKA they are honorable people. Granted, they're not trained at the MAlign level, but they do know their way around warship engine rooms, missile setups, laser and graser mounts, etc.

For the sake of discussion, let's presume that a small number don't have all that much allegiance to the SL (maybe from Verge systems) etc. and that each person would need to be screened very carefully (likely by 'cats) and kept away from sharp or exploding objects for a while.

Do you let them emigrate and begin to serve?

Certainly Grayson would let them work their passage as they did with Yu and Caslet. I suspect that Torch might well be willing to take a chance on them, particularly if they are scattered among a number of ex-slaves who would look very askance at an attempt to send them back into slavery.

SharkHunter wrote:Within the SLN forces captured at Manticore & Spindle, there are undoubtably a large group of fully trained SLN spacers that aren't totally MAlign corrupted, etc. AKA they are honorable people. Granted, they're not trained at the MAlign level, but they do know their way around warship engine rooms, missile setups, laser and graser mounts, etc.

For the sake of discussion, let's presume that a small number don't have all that much allegiance to the SL (maybe from Verge systems) etc. and that each person would need to be screened very carefully (likely by 'cats) and kept away from sharp or exploding objects for a while.

Do you let them emigrate and begin to serve?

I think we could assume that the people with a genuine, abiding loyalty to the Solarian League are a positive rarity. And even in the SLN, being a person of honor and integrity is probably reasonably common among crew and junior officers. (Heck, it may be a fine way to remain a junior officer.)

But there's still the issues of their loyalty to their home worlds, which remain in the League, and their sense that the League remains an unchanging constant in human affairs. That last may be shaken by now, but it will take a lot of shaking before it's just gone for many people. Less for those who have a very broad historical perspective - but remember, Thomas Theisman and Honor Alexander-Harrington shocked Eloise Pritchart and Elizabeth's cabinet respectively with that perspective, and those are not a bunch of close-minded rubes.

Still and all - New Tuscany, Spindle and Second Manticore were mighty powerful shocks for the people on the receiving end, and there were so very many people there, so yeah, there probably are a few people without powerful loyalties to the League or the remaining impression that it's just got to win in the end - a small portion of a huge roster may not be too small in absolute terms. And Grayson and Torch are among the more welcoming sorts. Quietly seeking service with Erewhon or the IAN are other possibilities, and Grayson, Torch and Haven may all have a lot of opportunities for well-trained SLN personnel for things other than shooting back at their former comrades. Chances are all concerned would rather not put people in that position.

JeffEngel wrote:

SharkHunter wrote:Within the SLN forces captured at Manticore & Spindle, there are undoubtably a large group of fully trained SLN spacers that aren't totally MAlign corrupted, etc. AKA they are honorable people. Granted, they're not trained at the MAlign level, but they do know their way around warship engine rooms, missile setups, laser and graser mounts, etc.

For the sake of discussion, let's presume that a small number don't have all that much allegiance to the SL (maybe from Verge systems) etc. and that each person would need to be screened very carefully (likely by 'cats) and kept away from sharp or exploding objects for a while.

Do you let them emigrate and begin to serve?

I think we could assume that the people with a genuine, abiding loyalty to the Solarian League are a positive rarity. And even in the SLN, being a person of honor and integrity is probably reasonably common among crew and junior officers. (Heck, it may be a fine way to remain a junior officer.)

But there's still the issues of their loyalty to their home worlds, which remain in the League, and their sense that the League remains an unchanging constant in human affairs. That last may be shaken by now, but it will take a lot of shaking before it's just gone for many people. Less for those who have a very broad historical perspective - but remember, Thomas Theisman and Honor Alexander-Harrington shocked Eloise Pritchart and Elizabeth's cabinet respectively with that perspective, and those are not a bunch of close-minded rubes.

Still and all - New Tuscany, Spindle and Second Manticore were mighty powerful shocks for the people on the receiving end, and there were so very many people there, so yeah, there probably are a few people without powerful loyalties to the League or the remaining impression that it's just got to win in the end - a small portion of a huge roster may not be too small in absolute terms. And Grayson and Torch are among the more welcoming sorts. Quietly seeking service with Erewhon or the IAN are other possibilities, and Grayson, Torch and Haven may all have a lot of opportunities for well-trained SLN personnel for things other than shooting back at their former comrades. Chances are all concerned would rather not put people in that position.

A fairly large number of the lower ranks will be coming from the protectorates and the Verge, where thay have little or no chance to ever rise above Captain in the Marines or LT Commander in the SLN, or the mid level ranks of the enlisted NCOs. Talented people such as Thandi Palane might well consider jumping to Torch or Grayson as a way of improving their chances of promotion.

--snipping--

JeffEngel wrote:

SharkHunter wrote:...For the sake of discussion, let's presume that a small number don't have all that much allegiance to the SL (maybe from Verge systems) etc. and that each person would need to be screened very carefully (likely by 'cats) and kept away from sharp or exploding objects for a while. Do you let them emigrate and begin to serve?

... And Grayson and Torch are among the more welcoming sorts. Quietly seeking service with Erewhon or the IAN are other possibilities, and Grayson, Torch and Haven may all have a lot of opportunities for well-trained SLN personnel for things other than shooting back at their former comrades. Chances are all concerned would rather not put people in that position.

Total 100% agreement. The Erewhon / Torch / Maya alliance might get quite a good amount of crewing and the SLN wouldn't even have a leg to stand on opposing it much: those three have their fight more specifically with the Mesan Alignment, until the SL starts to fall apart. Timed right, Rozak and Barregos could then welcome a chunk of them "back into the ideal sort of League navy", etc.

For Torch, I think the problem would be one of "with mostly just ex-slaves, it's easier to prove identities and therefore loyalty". Once large-scale emigration of other harder-to-identify specific DNA groups begin, how do you prevent MAlign infiltration? If even a fraction of former SLN spacers could be used to provide crewing (even temporarily) however, given 1st tier automation, the RTN would gain a magnitude level force multiplier without forcing those spacers into outright fighting against their former navy.

SharkHunter wrote:--snipping--

JeffEngel wrote:... And Grayson and Torch are among the more welcoming sorts. Quietly seeking service with Erewhon or the IAN are other possibilities, and Grayson, Torch and Haven may all have a lot of opportunities for well-trained SLN personnel for things other than shooting back at their former comrades. Chances are all concerned would rather not put people in that position.

Total 100% agreement. The Erewhon / Torch / Maya alliance might get quite a good amount of crewing and the SLN wouldn't even have a leg to stand on opposing it much: those three have their fight more specifically with the Mesan Alignment, until the SL starts to fall apart. Timed right, Rozak and Barregos could then welcome a chunk of them "back into the ideal sort of League navy", etc.

Sneaking back into the League in Maya would likely put both the former SLN personnel and Barregos into a sticky situation. But Erewhon would serve as a fine way of laundering people in the meantime, and once Barregos does break with the League, yeah, welcome "home"!

For Torch, I think the problem would be one of "with mostly just ex-slaves, it's easier to prove identities and therefore loyalty". Once large-scale emigration of other harder-to-identify specific DNA groups begin, how do you prevent MAlign infiltration? If even a fraction of former SLN spacers could be used to provide crewing (even temporarily) however, given 1st tier automation, the RTN would gain a magnitude level force multiplier without forcing those spacers into outright fighting against their former navy.

Torch already has a security problem with people with markers on their tongues; the Alignment has operatives born with them replacing "lost" slaves. So they don't get to avoid security holes taking in only apparent ex-slaves.

But if those SLN personnel are serving as training cadre (at low levels anyway, and goodness knows Torch can use it at any level) or in any technical field where not enough ex-slaves have the educational background for Torch's needs, security may not be a huge issue anyway. And as you say, they can do all that without taking arms against their old country anyway.

For that matter, Torch has a security agreement with the League through the Maya Sector, so there isn't an issue (theoretically) with them taking arms against the League there in any case. If anything, there may be a stink about Torch not repatriating such "traitors" to the League, but I don't even see that happening for the sake of a few very, very low profile individuals in the time the League has remaining to live.

SharkHunter wrote:
For Torch, I think the problem would be one of "with mostly just ex-slaves, it's easier to prove identities and therefore loyalty". Once large-scale emigration of other harder-to-identify specific DNA groups begin, how do you prevent MAlign infiltration? If even a fraction of former SLN spacers could be used to provide crewing (even temporarily) however, given 1st tier automation, the RTN would gain a magnitude level force multiplier without forcing those spacers into outright fighting against their former navy.

JeffEngel wrote:Torch already has a security problem with people with markers on their tongues; the Alignment has operatives born with them replacing "lost" slaves. So they don't get to avoid security holes taking in only apparent ex-slaves.

You do the validation the same way that Torch is going to start vetting incoming slaves - with treecats. This is a part of the ongoing war against the MAlign that the treecats have signed up for, and you will be placing a substantial contingents of treecats on multiple worlds, which is part of their overall plan to diversify their populations to prevent a total Yawata strike from wiping ut the species. I would not be surprised (Honor to Rabenstrange notwithstanding) that there will be a substantial contingent of treecats headed off to New Potsdam in the near future.

fallsfromtrees wrote:

SharkHunter wrote:
For Torch, I think the problem would be one of "with mostly just ex-slaves, it's easier to prove identities and therefore loyalty". Once large-scale emigration of other harder-to-identify specific DNA groups begin, how do you prevent MAlign infiltration? If even a fraction of former SLN spacers could be used to provide crewing (even temporarily) however, given 1st tier automation, the RTN would gain a magnitude level force multiplier without forcing those spacers into outright fighting against their former navy.

JeffEngel wrote:Torch already has a security problem with people with markers on their tongues; the Alignment has operatives born with them replacing "lost" slaves. So they don't get to avoid security holes taking in only apparent ex-slaves.

You do the validation the same way that Torch is going to start vetting incoming slaves - with treecats. This is a part of the ongoing war against the MAlign that the treecats have signed up for, and you will be placing a substantial contingents of treecats on multiple worlds, which is part of their overall plan to diversify their populations to prevent a total Yawata strike from wiping ut the species.

Would you suppose that the busy immigration service of a world that is not a formal member of the Grand Alliance is likely to have a treecat contingent on hand and available to screen everyone coming in anytime soon? I'd peg that as unlikely, myself, especially since it'd make downplaying the counter-intelligence use of the treecats so much harder.

Using some treecats for more critical positions would be something else - so much less work to do in that case - but then, Torch can employ quite a few people with good educational backgrounds outside security-intensive positions, so it may not even make much difference if you're not thinking of a blanket mindglow inspection policy.

I would not be surprised (Honor to Rabenstrange notwithstanding) that there will be a substantial contingent of treecats headed off to New Potsdam in the near future.

Could be, could be. So far, colonization has been politically, and astrographically, closer to Manticore, but spreading out everywhere other than polities that shrug off Yawata Strikes as entirely acceptable collateral damage would be consistent with getting their eggs in a variety of baskets.

Thinking a bit further ahead, it wouldn't hurt a lot of the human polities that are going to be springing up soon to have treecats around to keep heads of government honest and unable to hide associations with the Alignment.

JeffEngel wrote:Would you suppose that the busy immigration service of a world that is not a formal member of the Grand Alliance is likely to have a treecat contingent on hand and available to screen everyone coming in anytime soon? I'd peg that as unlikely, myself, especially since it'd make downplaying the counter-intelligence use of the treecats so much harder.

Using some treecats for more critical positions would be something else - so much less work to do in that case - but then, Torch can employ quite a few people with good educational backgrounds outside security-intensive positions, so it may not even make much difference if you're not thinking of a blanket mindglow inspection policy.

What makes you think that Torch is not part of the GA. They were certainly present in force at the meeting to discus how to deal with Filareta - which had Haven, Beowulf, Manticore, Grayson, and Torch represented. Andermani was not there by conscious decision, and there was still discussion of sending treecats to the Empire.

fallsfromtrees wrote:

SharkHunter wrote:
For Torch, I think the problem would be one of "with mostly just ex-slaves, it's easier to prove identities and therefore loyalty". Once large-scale emigration of other harder-to-identify specific DNA groups begin, how do you prevent MAlign infiltration? If even a fraction of former SLN spacers could be used to provide crewing (even temporarily) however, given 1st tier automation, the RTN would gain a magnitude level force multiplier without forcing those spacers into outright fighting against their former navy.

JeffEngel wrote:Torch already has a security problem with people with markers on their tongues; the Alignment has operatives born with them replacing "lost" slaves. So they don't get to avoid security holes taking in only apparent ex-slaves.

You do the validation the same way that Torch is going to start vetting incoming slaves - with treecats. This is a part of the ongoing war against the MAlign that the treecats have signed up for, and you will be placing a substantial contingents of treecats on multiple worlds, which is part of their overall plan to diversify their populations to prevent a total Yawata strike from wiping ut the species. I would not be surprised (Honor to Rabenstrange notwithstanding) that there will be a substantial contingent of treecats headed off to New Potsdam in the near future.

Slightly off topic but a response to treecats and New Potsdam. Imagine the next Heir who might want the Chancellor Herr Rosebush. A 'cat MIGHT have problems giving him/her a passing grade.