Athens of the Stars: Speculation on the Restored Republic

With the imminent release of House of Lies (or hopefully somewhat imminently, at any rate!), I thought we might break into speculation about the aspects of the restored Republic which have not, so far, made their way into the novels and which will hopefully be answered in the compendium!

For starters:

What is the RHN's loyalty toast?

Haven One - call sign or specific ship(s)? If the latter, what are they like? Is there more than one?

Do they have an equivalent of the Pledge of Allegiance? What is it, approximately?

Their national anthem - what's it called?

Major national holidays?

Is Michèle Péricard Haven's George Washington? How is she commemorated today?

What is Péricard Tower like? What about Eloise's private apartments? Is the Tower the White House and the Capitol in one?

What is their equivalent of court dress/white tie? Does this involve Eloise Pritchart in an evening gown?
....Can we see Eloise Pritchart in an evening gown if it does?

Will Haven ever regain its status of the "Athens of the Stars"?

How soon will Haven start loaning officers to the GSN and RMN, and vice versa?

What is Haven's equivalent of the West Wing? What would Eloise's chief of staff be like? Who would it be? How would her staff be structured? Can we meet them?

When is Haven going to throw a state dinner in honor of Manticore and Grayson? Will we see it?

What role will Eloise take on after her Presidency ends?

Who's going to be the first to name a superdreadnought the Javier Giscard? Would it just be insulting for Manticore to do so, or would it instead be a heartwarming and lovely gesture? Does this answer change if Eloise is the one to christen it? Or will all three navies have one instead?

Have at ye, mateys!!

roseandheather wrote:With the imminent release of House of Lies (or hopefully somewhat imminently, at any rate!), I thought we might break into speculation about the aspects of the restored Republic which have not, so far, made their way into the novels and which will hopefully be answered in the compendium!

For starters:

What is the RHN's loyalty toast?

I suspect that any loyalty toasts are reserved for events for any events where the President is actually present, which is how I think it works in the US.

Haven One - call sign or specific ship(s)? If the latter, what are they like? Is there more than one?

I would imagine that security demands that there is more than one Haven One for official state travel. Perhaps the REAL Haven One along with one or more decoys leave Haven, and then the decoys head to other destinations to distract the press. There is no FTL version of the Internet, so all news travels at the speed of a courier boat, meaning that Pritchart can make up story "for the purposes of National Security" and then report to it later. For example, her travel to Trevor's Star could have been masked as a visit to inspect the progress of systems affected by Multi-Sided Civil War following Theisman's Coup.

Do they have an equivalent of the Pledge of Allegiance? What is it, approximately?

Their national anthem - what's it called?

Yes, but the reign of both the Legislaturalists and Pierre (and Pals) might have made people a lot less interested in simple displays of Nationalism and are more likely to be left for Official State events or Military Ceremonies.

Major national holidays?

Every society in the Honorverse celebrates their founding. Additionally, President's Day was the President's birthday under the legislaturalists. In the United States President's Day is a specific Day and a National holiday, whereas the President's Birthday is separate. Monday August 4 2014 was not counted as a holiday(President Obama's birthday) in the US.

The anniversary of Theisman's Coup is likely celebrated as an "unofficial" holiday by the public.

Is Michèle Péricard Haven's George Washington? How is she commemorated today?

No.

Haven was founded as a peaceful colony, and not a colonial rebellion.

Michèle Péricard might be best compared to Captain John Smith in that both men(Michèle is the french form of Michael) led their people to new settlements to found a society based on specific principles.

Some historians call George Washington "the American Cincinatus" because he became a General, and did not seek power, but simple returned to his farm when duty was done.
Weber has said that Thomas Theisman is modeled on Cincinatus. In many an interview, the MWW has stated that McQueen was a misdirect because while we were looking for Napoleon(who would strengthen an Empire), we should have been looking for Cincinnatus(who would restore the republic).

Take from that what you will.


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What is Péricard Tower like? What about Eloise's private apartments? Is the Tower the White House and the Capitol in one?
[/quote]

I doubt it.

Péricard is more like the White House in comparison. In all likelihood it is the heart of a "cluster" of Towers that contain all the offices of the Executive Branch(Minus the New Octogon, where the war Department is headquartered), plus housing.

The House and Senate may be in the heart of an adjacent "Tower Cluster" containing the offices for House Reps, Senators, and housing for themselves and their staffs.

The Supreme Court may get their own Tower as well(do they share with the Justice Department?).

Finally you have the Nouveau Paris Offices for Lobbyists("Hello Senator, I represent the Veterans of the War of Manticoran Aggression...") and Haven's freed Press("Is Victor Cachat an Android? One author says yes. Details at 11.")

Will Haven ever regain its status of the "Athens of the Stars"?

Haven has a much bigger economy than Manticore, and it now growing thanks to the Trade Aggreement with Manticore.
Haven is a dominant power, but in terms of Political dominance Manticore is still in the driver's seat.

How soon will Haven start loaning officers to the GSN and RMN, and vice versa?

As soon a they can get to Havenite space.

For the other direction, I don't see Haven loaning any officers for anything other than brief War Games. Remember, Manticore already has a bunch of Havenite Officers available(Hey Warner Caslet ) and is taking their experience in Joint Military Command(the Manticoran Alliance) and applying that to the Grand Alliance.

What is Haven's equivalent of the West Wing? What would Eloise's chief of staff be like? Who would it be? How would her staff be structured? Can we meet them?

Péricard Tower.

Well we know she has a Security Detachment and so the commander of her security would work with her Chief of Staff to adopt her schedule. Her Chief of Staff would be responsible for dealing with the press when El Presidente is not available and for scheduling her appearances.

She was once "Brigade Commander Delta" in the Aprilist movement, so my guess is that her staff is very small and there are clear divisions between her household staff, her security, and her Presidential staff.

When is Haven going to throw a state dinner in honor of Manticore and Grayson? Will we see it?

Do you WANT her to lose the next election?

She is already dealing with the fallout from the anti-manticore faction, so such an event becomes fuel for their media.("President Pritchart becomes Manty Puppet, joins Manty War against Sollies.")

I do look forward to more scenes of formal meetings between both sets of characters.

What role will Eloise take on after her Presidency ends?

Former US Presidents have the option of Secret Service protection. As for her personal life, I could see her continuing in politics as a Senator or a Rep. Perhaps retiring to run for Governor of another planet.

Who's going to be the first to name a superdreadnought the Javier Giscard? Would it just be insulting for Manticore to do so, or would it instead be a heartwarming and lovely gesture? Does this answer change if Eloise is the one to christen it? Or will all three navies have one instead?

Haven may christen one of their new Podnaughts Javier Giscard(although a Battlecruiser or Heavy Cruiser might be more appropriate given his expertise in Commerce Raiding) to appease the anti-manticoranites in the Military and general public.

I think it might be a tad insulting to name a new Manty ship after the enemy commander who was a part of Operation Thunderbolt and captured Michelle Henke.

Phalanx wrote:

Who's going to be the first to name a superdreadnought the Javier Giscard? Would it just be insulting for Manticore to do so, or would it instead be a heartwarming and lovely gesture? Does this answer change if Eloise is the one to christen it? Or will all three navies have one instead?

Haven may christen one of their new Podnaughts Javier Giscard(although a Battlecruiser or Heavy Cruiser might be more appropriate given his expertise in Commerce Raiding) to appease the anti-manticoranites in the Military and general public.

I think it might be a tad insulting to name a new Manty ship after the enemy commander who was a part of Operation Thunderbolt and captured Michelle Henke.

I can't think of any instance in which a navy has named one of its ships after one of its (former) enemies' commanders. There are plenty of instances of a ship keeping its pre-capture name and that name being recommissioned, like the real-world HMS Temeraires and HMS Modestes. In the Honorverse, the GSN renamed their captured hulls. We don't know what happened to the captured DNs at Hancock Station after they were bought in by the RMN.

My bet is on the RHN's first(or second, if they're naming the class something else for diplomatic reasons) GA-designed SD(P) bearing the name of Javier Giscard. That is if the RHN hasn't already assigned the name...

Haven has a much bigger economy than Manticore, and it now growing thanks to the Trade Aggreement with Manticore.
Haven is a dominant power, but in terms of Political dominance Manticore is still in the driver's seat.


Given the SEM is not a single binary star system, but a multi-system power spread over hundreds of light years (their part of the SC and TQ, plus what every else they pick up), with a massive merchant marine, direct links to the successor states of the SL, control of the largest junction ever found (and at least temporal in control ever warp bridge they can get their hands on), though its been fighting a long war its internal systems with regards to education, rule of law, finance systems are all in good shape.

Whilst the Republic is still going to take generations to rebuild its internal systems "education rather than validation", replace the "effectively slave industries" (as seen in "Lets go to Prague") with a motivate and educated workforce with real manufacturing capability.

Don't forget you can't extrapolate from the military (and a less extent Haven) to the civilian labour force across the whole Republic.

I think the SEM is going to be running the show for some time to come.

...well aren't you all a bunch of dream-squashing unromantics.

Garth 2 wrote:Haven has a much bigger economy than Manticore, and it now growing thanks to the Trade Aggreement with Manticore.
Haven is a dominant power, but in terms of Political dominance Manticore is still in the driver's seat.


Given the SEM is not a single binary star system, but a multi-system power spread over hundreds of light years (their part of the SC and TQ, plus what every else they pick up), with a massive merchant marine, direct links to the successor states of the SL, control of the largest junction ever found (and at least temporal in control ever warp bridge they can get their hands on), though its been fighting a long war its internal systems with regards to education, rule of law, finance systems are all in good shape.

Whilst the Republic is still going to take generations to rebuild its internal systems "education rather than validation", replace the "effectively slave industries" (as seen in "Lets go to Prague") with a motivate and educated workforce with real manufacturing capability.

Don't forget you can't extrapolate from the military (and a less extent Haven) to the civilian labour force across the whole Republic.

I think the SEM is going to be running the show for some time to come.

But the scenes from Let's Go to Prague were from the old People's Republic, and we have now had a number of years since then in which the populations of the Republic are starting to change and actually enter the schools, and factories. I think that Haven is going to be a major economic power much sooner than you do.

fallsfromtrees wrote:

Garth 2 wrote:Haven has a much bigger economy than Manticore, and it now growing thanks to the Trade Aggreement with Manticore.
Haven is a dominant power, but in terms of Political dominance Manticore is still in the driver's seat.


Given the SEM is not a single binary star system, but a multi-system power spread over hundreds of light years (their part of the SC and TQ, plus what every else they pick up), with a massive merchant marine, direct links to the successor states of the SL, control of the largest junction ever found (and at least temporal in control ever warp bridge they can get their hands on), though its been fighting a long war its internal systems with regards to education, rule of law, finance systems are all in good shape.

Whilst the Republic is still going to take generations to rebuild its internal systems "education rather than validation", replace the "effectively slave industries" (as seen in "Lets go to Prague") with a motivate and educated workforce with real manufacturing capability.

Don't forget you can't extrapolate from the military (and a less extent Haven) to the civilian labour force across the whole Republic.

I think the SEM is going to be running the show for some time to come.

But the scenes from Let's Go to Prague were from the old People's Republic, and we have now had a number of years since then in which the populations of the Republic are starting to change and actually enter the schools, and factories. I think that Haven is going to be a major economic power much sooner than you do.

possible but the Republic is still in the process of building the tools, to build the tools, to build the end product.
It's going to take time for the investment to turn in to real world product.

Also, remarkable we have never seen any major backlash (admittedly under the committee, they ended up in "re-education") against the governments policy of ending the support structure (dole). There must be a lot of people who grow up on the dole, and want to stay on it because it's "easier" since the rule of law was (re-)introduced plus all the people who were in positions of power (either directly or indirectly) who would want to maintain it.

Overall, yes the Republic has the potential to grow past SEM as a nation, but on the international stage its location hampers it's impact just due to the communication delay, they just wouldn't have the same presence.
Note: at some point this will cause a reduction in the RHN as the politicians will start to see SEM as a buffer to other human power groups (same way IAN saw the SKM during the first Haven war).

Garth 2 wrote:

Garth 2 wrote:Haven has a much bigger economy than Manticore, and it now growing thanks to the Trade Aggreement with Manticore.
Haven is a dominant power, but in terms of Political dominance Manticore is still in the driver's seat.


Given the SEM is not a single binary star system, but a multi-system power spread over hundreds of light years (their part of the SC and TQ, plus what every else they pick up), with a massive merchant marine, direct links to the successor states of the SL, control of the largest junction ever found (and at least temporal in control ever warp bridge they can get their hands on), though its been fighting a long war its internal systems with regards to education, rule of law, finance systems are all in good shape.

Whilst the Republic is still going to take generations to rebuild its internal systems "education rather than validation", replace the "effectively slave industries" (as seen in "Lets go to Prague") with a motivate and educated workforce with real manufacturing capability.

Don't forget you can't extrapolate from the military (and a less extent Haven) to the civilian labour force across the whole Republic.

I think the SEM is going to be running the show for some time to come.

fallsfromtrees wrote:But the scenes from Let's Go to Prague were from the old People's Republic, and we have now had a number of years since then in which the populations of the Republic are starting to change and actually enter the schools, and factories. I think that Haven is going to be a major economic power much sooner than you do.

possible but the Republic is still in the process of building the tools, to build the tools, to build the end product.
It's going to take time for the investment to turn in to real world product.

Also, remarkable we have never seen any major backlash (admittedly under the committee, they ended up in "re-education") against the governments policy of ending the support structure (dole). There must be a lot of people who grow up on the dole, and want to stay on it because it's "easier" since the rule of law was (re-)introduced plus all the people who were in positions of power (either directly or indirectly) who would want to maintain it.

Overall, yes the Republic has the potential to grow past SEM as a nation, but on the international stage its location hampers it's impact just due to the communication delay, they just wouldn't have the same presence.
Note: at some point this will cause a reduction in the RHN as the politicians will start to see SEM as a buffer to other human power groups (same way IAN saw the SKM during the first Haven war).

There was also a six or seven sided civil war in the intervening 4 years between the end of Ashes of Victory and the start of War of Honor that that took place pretty much off stage. I suspect a lot of the people who felt that way did not survive that experience, and in Noveau Paris, many of the Dolists still remember Admiral Cluster Bomb, and until you can be sure that the new government is not going to employ the same tactics, you are going to keep your head down.

Not to mention, that they managed to upgrade enough in just those 4 years to build a large number of SD(P)s and CLACs with LAC wings - not as good as Manticore's but good enough to be within shouting distance. I don't think it will take the people in Bolthole all that long to come up to speed, once they have been shown how.

fallsfromtrees wrote:Not to mention, that they managed to upgrade enough in just those 4 years to build a large number of SD(P)s and CLACs with LAC wings - not as good as Manticore's but good enough to be within shouting distance. I don't think it will take the people in Bolthole all that long to come up to speed, once they have been shown how.

The USSR had really cool anti-aircraft missiles and icbms too.

roseandheather wrote:...well aren't you all a bunch of dream-squashing unromantics.

Yep, they are that. Other than a few of us, kind, gentle, noble, and otherwise worthwhile testosterone bearers content to let the Neanderthals run the rest of the universe.

Otherwise intermingled among us Cro-Magnon types that generally can't be trusted to know which end of the -stick to hold on to when it all goes down the crapper in the Honorverse.

I was thinking of emigrating to Grayson from Lovat anyway. Heard that they're in the market for pro-long recipient infrastructure builders and are offering scholarships to Manticoran U.