Return Of The Frigate

JeffEngel wrote:But yeah, I'm at least going to echo the response that that tonnage floor is going to be in the 300-400k ton range rather than returning to 60k or so in the next century. You'd need to miniaturize MDM's a huge amount, at a minimum, ...

People seem to forget that the Rolands are the smallest ship with room for MK-16 DDMs, and not enough room for a decent supply of those.

I can't see any reason for any Navy in the "Haven Sector" building anything that can't use at least MK-16 DDMs or the equivalent. That pretty much eliminates any "Frigate" sized ships in any main-line navy.

The Royal Torch Navy is a somewhat special case in that they inherited the Anti-Slavery League's frigates and needed them as training assets as well as the small-unit raiders they were built as. Since the RTN Frigates are armed with single drive DD sized missiles (or LAC Ship-killers) they're pretty much useless against anything heavier than armed merchant ships, like the Jessyk Combine's Mary Anne(?) captured at Montana. The RTN Frigates' fire-control should be compatible with RMN missiles of any size, so they can serve as control centers for system defense pods, or a couple of towed or tractored pods, but that would be a kluge -- using them for something other than designed missions.

Any small system's SDF purchasing new ships will be better served with traditional destroyer sized ships that can carry a decent load of ERM or DDM missiles or a wing or two of modern LACS and system defense pods.

JeffEngel wrote:In our wet navies, 'corvette' and 'frigate' got restored to use only after an interim period in which nothing going by those names was still in use, so there was no confusion invited by restoring them for new ship types reminiscent of the old ones. In the Honorverse - in the RMN anyway, and other navies have tended to just follow suit - destroyers, light and heavy cruisers, and battlecruisers have had tonnages creep up gradually over time tracking the needs of a consistent mission definition, while frigates got left behind - the RMN took to building CL's to do the classic frigate job.

I formed the opinion (the I believe I've shared here before) that the 'classic' RMN frigates and destroyers were two sides of the same coin - how to deal with needing more hulls for missions than you could afford to build as CLs.

Frigates and Destroyers weren't all that different in terms of displacement. But DDs were combat optimized at the expense of cruising endurance, and FFs were cruising optimized at the expense of raw combat capability. (And because combat systems. and the crew to man, them are more expensive than fuel and supplies Frigates also were cheaper to build and operate than Destroyers). One reason a CL usually didn't have all that much more combat power than a DD was that it merged the cruising range of the FF with (just a bit more than) the firepower of a DD.


But as the minimum survivable combat fit drove up the size (and cost) of DDs they started gaining internal volume that could be given over to more fuel and supplies - allowing the cruising endurance advantage between the 'classic' cheap frigates and the new "super" destroyers to shrink. Now you could deploy modern destroyers to Silesia without having to be overly paranoid about constantly topping up on fuel and supplies.


Now without the specter of the first Havenite war the RMN probably would have continued operating their existing frigates longer. After all they're paid for, still cheap to operate, and the average pirate in Silesia aren't improving his combat effectiveness like the 1st rate navies were. But I can't see them going back to that in the future. <shrug>

Given that tonnages are creeping up, and the the Roland is viewed as a transitional design, the only way you are going to get a frigate in the Honorverse to to rename the follow on to the Roland class as a frigate (RMN Frigate ). It won't conform to the sizes of the previous frigates, but then the new destroyers don't really conform to the sizes of the previous destroyers. I think that the destroyer and CL are going to get combined into a single class of ship - why not call that class the frigate - That way you can have your frigates.( and its the only way you are going to have them)

fallsfromtrees wrote:Given that tonnages are creeping up, and the the Roland is viewed as a transitional design, the only way you are going to get a frigate in the Honorverse to to rename the follow on to the Roland class as a frigate (RMN Frigate ). It won't conform to the sizes of the previous frigates, but then the new destroyers don't really conform to the sizes of the previous destroyers. I think that the destroyer and CL are going to get combined into a single class of ship - why not call that class the frigate - That way you can have your frigates.( and its the only way you are going to have them)

Right. I think that any new "frigate" that will exist will be exactly that sort of unit. I think it'd be a fine use of the term 'frigate' too. I just think that the use of 'frigate' for vastly smaller, less capable units in nearly current service will count against the recycling of the term for those units.

Jonathan_S wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:In our wet navies, 'corvette' and 'frigate' got restored to use only after an interim period in which nothing going by those names was still in use, so there was no confusion invited by restoring them for new ship types reminiscent of the old ones. In the Honorverse - in the RMN anyway, and other navies have tended to just follow suit - destroyers, light and heavy cruisers, and battlecruisers have had tonnages creep up gradually over time tracking the needs of a consistent mission definition, while frigates got left behind - the RMN took to building CL's to do the classic frigate job.

I formed the opinion (the I believe I've shared here before) that the 'classic' RMN frigates and destroyers were two sides of the same coin - how to deal with needing more hulls for missions than you could afford to build as CLs.

Frigates and Destroyers weren't all that different in terms of displacement. But DDs were combat optimized at the expense of cruising endurance, and FFs were cruising optimized at the expense of raw combat capability. (And because combat systems. and the crew to man, them are more expensive than fuel and supplies Frigates also were cheaper to build and operate than Destroyers). One reason a CL usually didn't have all that much more combat power than a DD was that it merged the cruising range of the FF with (just a bit more than) the firepower of a DD.

You're right about the frigate and destroyer roles and optimization. And certainly they could have built units optimized for one or the other in the same tonnage range. But as it happened, frigates were specifically smaller than destroyers as a class. Why, I don't know - it seems a bit arbitrary, and we haven't the whole history behind names for units in the Honorverse we've got in the real world. I think it goes back to Starfire and slapping names on things by size range, regardless of function or what else is in the arsenal and has been tweaked as things go on and the Honorverse 20th century PD history unfolds.

With the higher tonnage floor with MDM's and defenses against them, and the smaller crews, building for long range and some marine component won't be much more tonnage on top. That may mean that there's not enough reason to optimize classes for patrol capability versus maximum combat capability on a small hypercapable unit going forward. If there is, then 'destroyer' would certainly suit the little killer and 'frigate' the little picket. I just suspect that the RMN would tend to reserve 'light cruiser' for the patrol variant over 'frigate', since frigates in their experience haven't had the association with a growing tonnage range that destroyers and cruisers have, and are still associated with the dinky little things the RTN and older, cheap SDF's have.

If they sit back and realize that LAC's, pod-layer wallers, and MDM's (at least) make for a whole new space naval picture and re-envision fleets from the ground up, a different naming scheme is a lot more likely. But I suspect the GSN or even RHN is more likely to do that than the RMN is.

The RMN may well get to the same place - heck, maybe sooner - but they're much more inclined to carry things on as a consistent development from where they have been when it comes to names and unit roles rather than work out a whole new picture based on what you've got and what you need to do than, say, Shannon Foraker or Judah Yanakov. It may just come down to the hardware sorts and the fleet theorists being two warring camps in the RMN rather then one happy open-minded family.

After the Sollies and the Malignment, (MA) Navies get eventually pounded into space dust bunnies, (but not without a great fight) many remaining ex sollie aspiring semi independent star systems might consider taking advantage of the situation ... thus the potential return of lots of nasty pirates.

Using a Rolland or its future larger replacement for potting pirates might be described as a definition of classic overkill. Probably the pirates will be using ships just large and powerful enough to prey on unarmed merchantmen. Thus the need for a smaller, cheaper new pirate suppression warship.

Enter the Frigate. Kinda like our late cold war United States Navy Knox and Perry class vessels designed pretty much just to handle enemy submarines. These new small cheap star ships would be designed just to handle pirates. Thus the need for many new cheap small Frigates. Corvettes are too small.

Just me. Kinda also like the BIG sub chasers of WW2 in the Atlantic. Cheap, slow, expedient, weak, but good enough for the job at hand. No more than that. But also strong enough to take on the occasional larger pirate ship. Post war conditions are going to very interesting. HB of CJ (old coot) Cm.

HB of CJ wrote:After the Sollies and the Malignment, (MA) Navies get eventually pounded into space dust bunnies, (but not without a great fight) many remaining ex sollie aspiring semi independent star systems might consider taking advantage of the situation ... thus the potential return of lots of nasty pirates.

Using a Rolland or its future larger replacement for potting pirates might be described as a definition of classic overkill. Probably the pirates will be using ships just large and powerful enough to prey on unarmed merchantmen. Thus the need for a smaller, cheaper new pirate suppression warship.

Enter the Frigate. Kinda like our late cold war United States Navy Knox and Perry class vessels designed pretty much just to handle enemy submarines. These new small cheap star ships would be designed just to handle pirates. Thus the need for many new cheap small Frigates. Corvettes are too small.

Just me. Kinda also like the BIG sub chasers of WW2 in the Atlantic. Cheap, slow, expedient, weak, but good enough for the job at hand. No more than that. But also strong enough to take on the occasional larger pirate ship. Post war conditions are going to very interesting. HB of CJ (old coot) Cm.

I know it's a bit expense as a way to think. But I'm in favor of overkill myself.

Don

n7axw wrote:

HB of CJ wrote:After the Sollies and the Malignment, (MA) Navies get eventually pounded into space dust bunnies, (but not without a great fight) many remaining ex sollie aspiring semi independent star systems might consider taking advantage of the situation ... thus the potential return of lots of nasty pirates.

Using a Rolland or its future larger replacement for potting pirates might be described as a definition of classic overkill. Probably the pirates will be using ships just large and powerful enough to prey on unarmed merchantmen. Thus the need for a smaller, cheaper new pirate suppression warship.

Enter the Frigate. Kinda like our late cold war United States Navy Knox and Perry class vessels designed pretty much just to handle enemy submarines. These new small cheap star ships would be designed just to handle pirates. Thus the need for many new cheap small Frigates. Corvettes are too small.

Just me. Kinda also like the BIG sub chasers of WW2 in the Atlantic. Cheap, slow, expedient, weak, but good enough for the job at hand. No more than that. But also strong enough to take on the occasional larger pirate ship. Post war conditions are going to very interesting. HB of CJ (old coot) Cm.

I know it's a bit expense as a way to think. But I'm in favor of overkill myself.

Don

After the SLN and MAN get pounded to dust bunnies, there are going to be a lot of independent polities with navies. If you don't want to be merged with one of them, you are going to need to have a navy of your own, and frigates aren't going to cut it (unless they are the new build frigates that are larger than the current size of a Roland). In fact, the entire explored galaxy may turn into a giant version of Silesia, with massive independence movements, and so called governments issuing their own letters of marque, which means that there will be larger ships than your standard pirate vessel out there preying on shipping.

HB of CJ wrote:After the Sollies and the Malignment, (MA) Navies get eventually pounded into space dust bunnies, (but not without a great fight) many remaining ex sollie aspiring semi independent star systems might consider taking advantage of the situation ... thus the potential return of lots of nasty pirates.

Using a Rolland or its future larger replacement for potting pirates might be described as a definition of classic overkill. Probably the pirates will be using ships just large and powerful enough to prey on unarmed merchantmen. Thus the need for a smaller, cheaper new pirate suppression warship.

Enter the Frigate. Kinda like our late cold war United States Navy Knox and Perry class vessels designed pretty much just to handle enemy submarines. These new small cheap star ships would be designed just to handle pirates. Thus the need for many new cheap small Frigates. Corvettes are too small.

Just me. Kinda also like the BIG sub chasers of WW2 in the Atlantic. Cheap, slow, expedient, weak, but good enough for the job at hand. No more than that. But also strong enough to take on the occasional larger pirate ship. Post war conditions are going to very interesting. HB of CJ (old coot) Cm.

Armed merchant cruisers may suffice for that.

There will be a few years in which you'll have lots of little opposition with no multi-drive missiles. ("Multi" here meaning over 1, including a CM drive.) For that, you could get away with whatever.

But you'd be putting a whole lot of money and people into units that would be ineffective - death traps - against any modern units, even someone with a stolen missile pod. You'd have units that will be able to serve no regular military purpose immediately, and no armed purpose whatever against opposition in ten years. The reduced crew requirements of modern ships mean vastly reduced operating costs, and construction costs do not increase in direct proportion to tonnage either. So you'd be saving much, much less than you might think.

Even for just being the single platform for detecting and blowing away nearly defenseless, nearly harmless targets, the dinky ship will be at a profound disadvantage compared to the larger one, with recon drones the larger ship can support easily and the dinky one just can't. The FTL recon drone means that, as a sensor platform, the small hypercapable ship with maybe one of them is profoundly outdone by a larger one with a whole brood of drone. And giving the larger unit a longer cruising range is much easier too, so it's out there on the job a longer time at a stretch.

The dinky platform has competition from the other direction, too. Where hyper-capability isn't a strong issue - when you're content to make your defenses tied for long periods to a single system - LAC's and system defense pods will do the job. There may be many systems that won't have modern LAC's or MDM system defense pods too soon, but if you've got a choice between building them such units that will be useful as far into the future as you can predict, versus units you know are already obsolete... it's a no-brainer.

If you want to use something to fill in between now and then, I recommend the ships of the Solarian League Navy. They're already built and no longer useful for fighting wars.

n7axw wrote:I know it's a bit expense as a way to think. But I'm in favor of overkill myself.

Don

From the "Seventy Maxims of Maximally Effective Mercenaries", (see http://schlockmercenary.wikia.com/wiki/ ... ercenaries),

There is no 'overkill.' There is only 'open fire' and 'I need to reload.