HFQ up on Amazon

fallsfromtrees wrote:You can find vanity publishers that will print trade paper versions of books for about $10/copy, in quantity 1000, but now you have the fulfillment problems - who are you going to pay to package and ship the books. And if you are going to ship to bookstores (like Barnes & Noble or Books a Million, remember that they expect a discount of 40% off of the list price (more if you are Amazon), and the right to ship any unsold copies back to you for a refund (and you are paying for the shipping). So instead you hire a fulfillment house, and pay them their fees, an pretty soon you find that you are your own publishing house - This way lies madness.

In addition, those cheap vanity publishers generally provide no editing, often no proof copy for the author to check over, no cover art, free fonts rather than professional fonts that look better, cheap binding, and no guarantee of quality. They do little more than take your Word document (or whatever format) and send it straight to the printer with a template that adds title page and verso.

Librarians hate vanity presses, especially when a patron insists on getting his book into the collection.

[edit]
I should clarify that I am talking about here about those publishers that deserve to be called vanity presses. There are also legitimate self-publishing presses that do a quality job for those who want small quantities of self-published materials professionally done.

I don't think anyone is denying that producing paper books costs money and that having a publishing house do it probably creates economies of scale. But the last few posts seem to be turning Keith W's argument on its head; he wasn't denying that producing paper books costs money, he was arguing that producing ebooks should cost less and so they should be sold cheaper.

I find it very hard to see how capital investment in presses, maintenance of same, the printers' wage bill, materials costs, warehousing and trucking costs, taxes and costs for disposal of unsold copies plus opportunity cost of having capital tied up in most of the above, doesn't amount to a fair bit more than the cost of maintaining the files on a server and delivering them electronically. Put it this way, when Baen sell a Hardback for $25 and the very same ebook for $9.99 do you really believe they are not making money on the ebook? (Or that the extra $15 for the H/B is all gravy?)

Edit for reality check

In point of fact, Amazon do sell the electronic version at considerably less than the Hardcover in many cases. I got the Kindle version of LAMA for £10.99 on 18th Feb when the hardcover was going for about £16.80.

Randomiser wrote:I don't think anyone is denying that producing paper books costs money and that having a publishing house do it probably creates economies of scale. But the last few posts seem to be turning Keith W's argument on its head; he wasn't denying that producing paper books costs money, he was arguing that producing ebooks should cost less and so they should be sold cheaper.

I find it very hard to see how capital investment in presses, maintenance of same, the printers' wage bill, materials costs, warehousing and trucking costs, taxes and costs for disposal of unsold copies plus opportunity cost of having capital tied up in most of the above, doesn't amount to a fair bit more than the cost of maintaining the files on a server and delivering them electronically. Put it this way, when Baen sell a Hardback for $25 and the very same ebook for $9.99 do you really believe they are not making money on the ebook? (Or that the extra $15 for the H/B is all gravy?)

Look at the signature line. Think about it. Why does a radiator cap for my Motorcycle cost $30 through a bike shop? Only $15 if I look up a car that uses the same thing and purchase it at a Auto Parts Store. (Yep that bike shop sees you coming, but also lot of reasons for that.)

For Baen is that authors get differing percentages of the various ways they are sold (HB, MMB, PB, EBOOK, or Monthly Bundle). Just like when the price went up to get on Amazon the author's share went up 25%, IIRC. So Baen's costs vary.

Fairly common topic for discussion in Toni's Table.

Also Baen gives you multiple formats but they all made in an automated process. Problem with that is not all of them work the same on different readers as the printed version does. But it incurrs no "real" cost.

TOR for example does do a better job of the electronic formatting issues, in my opinion, but that comes with a cost, to pay someone and process each book.

All that said it boils down to my signature line.

Publishers will produce products at a price. What is it worth to you? Sooner or later both will be happy, or broke/out of business.

I was just pointing out that physical printing of the book is the smallest(probably) driver of the price.

Have fun,
T2M

kbus888 wrote:=2015/01/07=
I am looking forward to ordering the ebook the day it becomes available

No pre-order, though as I calculate my survival (I have some health issues) this year at about 20% and pre-ordering would serve no useful purpose.

I'll admit, though that reading both Safehold and War God snippets are keeping me entertained between Chemo sessions

I get nearly as much fun reading the Safehold forum as I do reading the completed story !!

R
.

I missed this on the first time through and feel the need to reply.

I hope that you get to the end of the Safehold saga on this side but on the flip side if you don't, you get to read the new Heinleins before we do!

thinkstoomuch wrote:

Keith_w wrote:I don't know why they cant offer the E-book at a much lower price than the dead tree version, since you don't need dead trees, ink or delivery services for them.

From my very, very, very limited understanding of the business model. The stuff you mention is a miniscule portion of the cost. Heck for me to print an e-book in a one off thing is like a dollar when I did such silliness.

Enjoy,
T2M

I understand that there are still Authors, Editors, and Shareholders to pay, as well as buying space on servers, and covering the various other costs of business, however, there is no cost for paper, no cost for ink, no cost for delivery of the books to the distributor, and, possibly to the retailer, and no cost to deliver the book to your house. So the only thing I can believe is that those no longer costs are being used to supplement someones' bottom line.

=2014/01/09=

Yup

There are two sides to every coin

R
.

Charybdis wrote:

kbus888 wrote:=2015/01/07=
I am looking forward to ordering the ebook the day it becomes available

No pre-order, though as I calculate my survival (I have some health issues) this year at about 20% and pre-ordering would serve no useful purpose.

I'll admit, though that reading both Safehold and War God snippets are keeping me entertained between Chemo sessions

I get nearly as much fun reading the Safehold forum as I do reading the completed story !!

R
.

I missed this on the first time through and feel the need to reply.

I hope that you get to the end of the Safehold saga on this side but on the flip side if you don't, you get to read the new Heinleins before we do!

Keith_w wrote:I understand that there are still Authors, Editors, and Shareholders to pay, as well as buying space on servers, and covering the various other costs of business, however, there is no cost for paper, no cost for ink, no cost for delivery of the books to the distributor, and, possibly to the retailer, and no cost to deliver the book to your house. So the only thing I can believe is that those no longer costs are being used to supplement someones' bottom line.

In that case then the responsible thing for you to do to do is not buy the overpriced e-book and not supporting those people/companies that you feel are overcharging you.

Enough people do that they will go out of business. Simple economics even I understand.

Simple really,
T2M

PS. I'm sort confused why this is in this forum. The Hard Back for "Like a Mighty Army" is currently selling for $20.59 at Barnes and Noble. Baen is already been discussed. The e-book is selling for $14.99 or about 25% off. Or at least that is what "bing" referred me to. Which seems to be what you are advocating. We are already there.<shrug>

Keith_w wrote:I understand that there are still Authors, Editors, and Shareholders to pay, as well as buying space on servers, and covering the various other costs of business, however, there is no cost for paper, no cost for ink, no cost for delivery of the books to the distributor, and, possibly to the retailer, and no cost to deliver the book to your house. So the only thing I can believe is that those no longer costs are being used to supplement someones' bottom line.

Yes, you are correct that an e-book publisher does not need to pay for paper, ink, and presses. But we have been trying to say that those costs are a relatively small fraction of the costs of publishing. Yes, it costs the publisher less to publish an e-book than a print book. But it is not as big a difference as you seem to think.

Yes, there is a larger profit margin on most e-books than on the corresponding print books. All we have been trying to explain is that there are still significant costs. No one has said that it costs publishers just as much to do e-books as print books.

thinkstoomuch wrote:

Keith_w wrote:I understand that there are still Authors, Editors, and Shareholders to pay, as well as buying space on servers, and covering the various other costs of business, however, there is no cost for paper, no cost for ink, no cost for delivery of the books to the distributor, and, possibly to the retailer, and no cost to deliver the book to your house. So the only thing I can believe is that those no longer costs are being used to supplement someones' bottom line.

In that case then the responsible thing for you to do to do is not buy the overpriced e-book and not supporting those people/companies that you feel are overcharging you.

Enough people do that they will go out of business. Simple economics even I understand.

Simple really,
T2M

PS. I'm sort confused why this is in this forum. The Hard Back for "Like a Mighty Army" is currently selling for $20.59 at Barnes and Noble. Baen is already been discussed. The e-book is selling for $14.99 or about 25% off. Or at least that is what "bing" referred me to. Which seems to be what you are advocating. We are already there.<shrug>

And that's probably what I'll do since I prefer dead tree versions except when traveling and hopefully they will take the hint.

SWM wrote:

Keith_w wrote:I understand that there are still Authors, Editors, and Shareholders to pay, as well as buying space on servers, and covering the various other costs of business, however, there is no cost for paper, no cost for ink, no cost for delivery of the books to the distributor, and, possibly to the retailer, and no cost to deliver the book to your house. So the only thing I can believe is that those no longer costs are being used to supplement someones' bottom line.

Yes, you are correct that an e-book publisher does not need to pay for paper, ink, and presses. But we have been trying to say that those costs are a relatively small fraction of the costs of publishing. Yes, it costs the publisher less to publish an e-book than a print book. But it is not as big a difference as you seem to think.

Yes, there is a larger profit margin on most e-books than on the corresponding print books. All we have been trying to explain is that there are still significant costs. No one has said that it costs publishers just as much to do e-books as print books.

I have no idea how much that stuff costs, and as I said I am well aware that there are still significant costs involved. So unless you are able to assert that the printing and delivery involved in that format are less than 10 percent of the cost, I will continue to beleive that eBooks should cost considerably less.