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Is Clyntahn an atheist?

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Re: Is Clyntahn an atheist?
Post by McGuiness   » Mon Jan 05, 2015 12:53 pm

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ecortez wrote:I was wondering about his reaction to the steam engine too. He's displayed enough ignorance of (and surprise at) Charisian innovations and weapons that it seems unlikely he's a pre-Safeholdian in PICA form or knows the full truth. But certain Inquisition files and historical records may be available to him, due to his position, which no one else, or only a handful of others, have access to.

For instance the Church may know of the Terran Federation as part of an ancient heresy long since eradicated (or so they think). Clyntahn probably has no clue what an "engine" is or what it's actually used for; but he may recognize the term, along with others like radio, satellite, computer, or hyperdrive, as names of Proscribed devices. He doesn't know what they are. Only that people aren't supposed to have them.

When Rayno mentions the steam engine Clyntahn knows for sure (even if he can't explain how he knows without revealing the Inquisition's most closely-guarded secret files) that Charis is now doing what he's falsely accused them of doing in the past: dabbling in the unclean knowledge of Shan-Wei. Since he's made the accusation already there's little point in making it again. I'm sure that from his point of view though, the ante has just been upped.
I looked up the actual scene where Rayno explains the contents of the briefcase captured from the Charisian engineer who was murdered in Siddar City.

"Why, a complete description of the heretics’ new steel-making process, Your Grace,” Rayno said, and nodded at the sudden change in Clyntahn’s expression. “I’m no mechanic myself, so my ability to assess the information is limited. I believe there are some gaps, and I could wish there were more technical drawings to accompany the text. In addition, it deals only with blast furnaces and something called ‘open hearth’ furnaces, not with all the other devices our agents suggest the heretics have employed to increase their productivity so markedly. However,as part of the description of the furnaces, there’s also a discussion of something called a ‘steam engine.’ I’ve found no directions for building one of them, but there’s a lengthy description of the principles upon which they work. I suspect our own mechanics and artificers might be able to create ‘steam engines’ of their own if those principles were shared with them.”
“Schueler,” Clyntahn said very softly. Then he shook himself, hard.
“Tell me more about this ‘steam engine,’” he said.


My first reaction to this scene was that Clyntahn was overwhelmed with the amount of information the CoGA had just captured from Charis, especially the device that had allowed the heretics to propel the ironclads that made the Great Canal Raid.

In retrospect though, how would Clyntahn know what an "engine" was at all? His reaction might well have been in response to the sheer amount of information on how to duplicate the Charisian's technology the Inquisition had just captured, and given the course of the conversation, it was natural for him to ask for more details about the steam engine.

I searched the text of the entire series and found that RFC only uses the term "he shook himself" when the person is musing about something else, then stops his deep, wandering thoughts and brings himself back to the present by shaking himself. Note that Clyntahn shook himself hard! This is the only instance where someone does that. Whatever the term "steam engine" caused him to think about was so captivating or serious that it captured his entire attention to the exclusion of what Rayno was telling him! It took a strong effort to bring his thoughts back to what Rayno was saying.

So what did the term "steam engine" cause Clyntahn to start thinking of? Clearly he was familiar with the term even if the concept wasn't familiar to him. Note that when he asks Rayno to tell him more about it, the term "steam engine" is in parentheses, indicating that he was repeating the name of it carefully to get it right.

It appears that the head of the Inquisition knows more than we thought he did. He may only know the term, or that "engines" are reserved for use by the Archangels. It seems strange that only the head of the Inquisition knows the term though. Does a new Grand Inquisitor get a top secret manual on forbidden technology when he gets the job so he'll know what items are sufficiently high tech that if he hears of them, he should warn something in the basement of the temple that they exist? Does he learn the names of forbidden tech through an ancient hologram with a pronounced shift in pronunciation, which is why Clyntahn said "steam engine" carefully when he asked Rayno to tell him more about it?

Keep in mind, it's unlikely that technology developed independently on Safehold would have the same name as Terran tech. That means that if one of the Terran names of forbidden tech does turn up, it's proof that the knowledge of Shan-Wei is somehow involved - not that he hasn't accused Charis of that already, then approved the very tech he condemned. But this time he'd be right!

I certainly hope that the Grand Inquisitor's secret manual doesn't have instructions on how to wake up something under the temple if one of the forbidden terms shows up...

It bodes ill for our heroes that the bad guys now know what propels the ironclads, but it will be years before the CoGA's artificers can create a working steam engine based on the information they currently have, and they'll make a lot of mistakes along the way, which Howsmyn avoided by passing along hints from OWL. But if "steam engine" is a specific technology that the Grand Inquisitor knows was banned by the archangels, the CoGA won't be building any of them, and the EoC will be accused of dabbling in the black arts of Shan-Wei.

So it appears that the real threat may be that Clyntahn knows more than we thought he did... and may possibly have the means to do something about it. :shock:

"Oh bother", said Pooh as he glanced through the airlock window at the helmet he'd forgotten to wear.
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Re: Is Clyntahn an atheist?
Post by SWM   » Mon Jan 05, 2015 1:37 pm

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Sorry, McGuinness, I think you are stretching an awful lot to infer all of that just from the phrase "shook himself hard". I think it is much more likely that the thought he was bringing himself back from is all the technical information just captured.
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Re: Is Clyntahn an atheist?
Post by ecortez   » Mon Jan 05, 2015 3:55 pm

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If Clyntahn had the same kind of information as the inner circle he would have realized there'd been a serious breach the moment Arabic numerals and decimal numbers reappeared. I do think he was reacting specifically to the term "steam engine" though.

It makes sense that Langhorne (or more likely the surviving Archangels who picked up the pieces after his death) would have left the Inquisition some sort of special instructions that would let them determine at a later time, centuries or more in the future, whether a resurgence of advanced technology was starting to happen. How much and what type of information they included is hard to say. Or of course, what the Grand Inquisitor is supposed to do if he decides the answer is yes.
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Re: Is Clyntahn an atheist?
Post by Keith_w   » Mon Jan 05, 2015 8:16 pm

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I think that if Clyntahn had access to information similar to what Merlin is providing Charis, he would have already put it to use in his war against Charis.
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Re: Is Clyntahn an atheist?
Post by n7axw   » Mon Jan 05, 2015 8:25 pm

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McGuiness has postulated that Clyntahn might be aware of what is in the basement of the temple.

That can't be completely ruled out and it is certainly possible that someone stumbled across the door that Father Paityr mentioned when he was told the truth. After all, Clyntahn and his inquisitors control the place.

But if he is aware of what's in the basement, he can't understand what it means. If he did, he probably would have summoned help from the Archangels by now. Or, if the computer actually controls the OBS, Charis would be ruins by now.

I think it is more likely that he doesn't know at all than that he does.

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Re: Is Clyntahn an atheist?
Post by ecortez   » Mon Jan 05, 2015 10:24 pm

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The original planners wouldn't have wanted anyone, even the highest officials of the Church, to know the full truth. Whatever instructions they left behind would be like the Writ's directions for terraforming new land or its health and dietary rules. There's no reference (as an example) to Vitamin C or its role in the body; if a sailor fails to keep his laws, the Archangel Pasquale inflicts the curse of scurvy as punishment. In other words the Writ says what you need to do, and how, but not the real reasons why.

I'd be surprised if there weren't a stack of files waiting on the desk of every new Grand Inquisitor, right after they're sworn in. For-your-eyes-only type files that have passed all the way down the line of their predecessors to them. Those documents wouldn't contain the true story of humanity and its past. More like a secret appendix to the Holy Writ.

It would tell the head of the Inquisition what to look for, what signs and situations betray the presence of Shan-Wei's servants. An enemy that coordinates flawlessly over great distances - that's probably one of them. There'd be no mention of radio waves. The instant communication would be made to sound like telepathy or black magic, foul arts practiced by God's enemies. There could also be a list of tainted concepts and forbidden devices.

If three or more of these signs come to pass, if five or more of the words on this list appear in the reports of your agents, then ... well that's the big question isn't it? What then?
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Re: Is Clyntahn an atheist?
Post by McGuiness   » Tue Jan 06, 2015 1:34 pm

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ecortez wrote:SNIP
I'd be surprised if there weren't a stack of files waiting on the desk of every new Grand Inquisitor, right after they're sworn in. For-your-eyes-only type files that have passed all the way down the line of their predecessors to them. Those documents wouldn't contain the true story of humanity and its past. More like a secret appendix to the Holy Writ.

It would tell the head of the Inquisition what to look for, what signs and situations betray the presence of Shan-Wei's servants. An enemy that coordinates flawlessly over great distances - that's probably one of them. There'd be no mention of radio waves. The instant communication would be made to sound like telepathy or black magic, foul arts practiced by God's enemies. There could also be a list of tainted concepts and forbidden devices.

If three or more of these signs come to pass, if five or more of the words on this list appear in the reports of your agents, then ... well that's the big question isn't it? What then?
An excellent summation of some of the things it's possible that the Grand Inquisitor may be instructed to look for, and if they occur, to act against.

Of course no GI has been given the keys to the OBS, or Charis would have been a smoking crater after OAR. The archangels didn't envision the heretics having gotten such a technological jump that they could kick the CoGA's butt in a war, which would prevent the Inquisition from putting a stop to the secretly proscribed ideas and devices when they appeared.

I'd guess that stack of "For your eyes only" documents includes specific words used in Terran Federation tech, since those would be an immediate tip that the knowledge of Shan-Wei was loose on Safehold. Hence the term "engine" would be on the list.

I'd have thought that gunpowder would have been on the list of proscribed ideas, since it provides a way to upset the societal matrix the archangels put in place. Merlin thought the same when he noted its existence shortly after he woke up. (Which argues against the GI having extra knowledge - or the bribe was just too big to refuse!)

Whether the GI has a secret appendix to the Writ or not, it's too late to stop the process of technological advancement. The CoGA lost control after OAR simply because that appendix (if it exists) didn't include Arabic Numerals, which should have been flagged by name, as well as the "Charisian rigging" of sails to make ships able to sail much closer to the wind, which basically made the galley obsolete. Once Charis developed explosive shells, it was over. Starting a land war against the EoC's most likely mainland ally was the fatal misstep.

These concepts could have been smothered in any mainland realm, but not in the island realms once the CoGA lost control of the seas, which the archangels obviously never envisioned. If they'd paid attention to where Shan-Wei placed Tellesberg, they'd have bombarded The Throat as well, since it offered such a strategic advantage. Oops! :lol:

"Oh bother", said Pooh as he glanced through the airlock window at the helmet he'd forgotten to wear.
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Re: Is Clyntahn an atheist?
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Wed Jan 07, 2015 2:53 am

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McGuiness wrote:
ecortez wrote:SNIP
I'd be surprised if there weren't a stack of files waiting on the desk of every new Grand Inquisitor, right after they're sworn in. For-your-eyes-only type files that have passed all the way down the line of their predecessors to them. Those documents wouldn't contain the true story of humanity and its past. More like a secret appendix to the Holy Writ.

It would tell the head of the Inquisition what to look for, what signs and situations betray the presence of Shan-Wei's servants. An enemy that coordinates flawlessly over great distances - that's probably one of them. There'd be no mention of radio waves. The instant communication would be made to sound like telepathy or black magic, foul arts practiced by God's enemies. There could also be a list of tainted concepts and forbidden devices.

If three or more of these signs come to pass, if five or more of the words on this list appear in the reports of your agents, then ... well that's the big question isn't it? What then?
An excellent summation of some of the things it's possible that the Grand Inquisitor may be instructed to look for, and if they occur, to act against.

Of course no GI has been given the keys to the OBS, or Charis would have been a smoking crater after OAR. The archangels didn't envision the heretics having gotten such a technological jump that they could kick the CoGA's butt in a war, which would prevent the Inquisition from putting a stop to the secretly proscribed ideas and devices when they appeared.

I'd guess that stack of "For your eyes only" documents includes specific words used in Terran Federation tech, since those would be an immediate tip that the knowledge of Shan-Wei was loose on Safehold. Hence the term "engine" would be on the list.

I'd have thought that gunpowder would have been on the list of proscribed ideas, since it provides a way to upset the societal matrix the archangels put in place. Merlin thought the same when he noted its existence shortly after he woke up. (Which argues against the GI having extra knowledge - or the bribe was just too big to refuse!)

Whether the GI has a secret appendix to the Writ or not, it's too late to stop the process of technological advancement. The CoGA lost control after OAR simply because that appendix (if it exists) didn't include Arabic Numerals, which should have been flagged by name, as well as the "Charisian rigging" of sails to make ships able to sail much closer to the wind, which basically made the galley obsolete. Once Charis developed explosive shells, it was over. Starting a land war against the EoC's most likely mainland ally was the fatal misstep.

These concepts could have been smothered in any mainland realm, but not in the island realms once the CoGA lost control of the seas, which the archangels obviously never envisioned. If they'd paid attention to where Shan-Wei placed Tellesberg, they'd have bombarded The Throat as well, since it offered such a strategic advantage. Oops! :lol:

Since Shan-Wei was in charge of terra-forming Safehold, she was probably responsible for establishing most or all of the locations for settlement. Wiping out all ofhte places she set up settlements would have effectively meant wiping out 90-98% of the humans on Safehold, thereby finishing the job for the Gbaba. Wasn't gonna happen.

And except for the canal raid, which absolutely could not have been foreseen, the attack on Siddarmark would have removed Charis' most likely continental ally from play for a very long time - as well as demonstrating to all of the other continental powers the folly of cooperating with Charis. In short it would have guaranteed that 80% of the population of the world would continue to support the church, and with the armies of the CoGA triumphant on the continent, the CoG would have returned its full energy to building the navy required to attack Charis. Granted, this effort would have failed, but the result would have been a standoff for at least Clyntahn's lifetime.
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Re: Is Clyntahn an atheist?
Post by McGuiness   » Wed Jan 07, 2015 6:43 am

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fallsfromtrees wrote:Since Shan-Wei was in charge of terra-forming Safehold, she was probably responsible for establishing most or all of the locations for settlement. Wiping out all ofhte places she set up settlements would have effectively meant wiping out 90-98% of the humans on Safehold, thereby finishing the job for the Gbaba. Wasn't gonna happen.

And except for the canal raid, which absolutely could not have been foreseen, the attack on Siddarmark would have removed Charis' most likely continental ally from play for a very long time - as well as demonstrating to all of the other continental powers the folly of cooperating with Charis. In short it would have guaranteed that 80% of the population of the world would continue to support the church, and with the armies of the CoGA triumphant on the continent, the CoG would have returned its full energy to building the navy required to attack Charis. Granted, this effort would have failed, but the result would have been a standoff for at least Clyntahn's lifetime.
I should clarify - Shan-Wei planted four of her re-educated colonists in Tellesberg, and they founded St. Zherneau's. Obviously if Langhorne or those who survived Pei's vest pocket nuke had suspected, a quick database search would have located the 212 people scattered across Safehold who knew the truth. Fortunately that database was destroyed in the explosion, so the discrepancy that 212 colonists who had been assigned to Alexandria had somehow been reassigned to other enclaves was never caught until OWL checked his intact database.

That brings up the question of what the other 208 colonists did with their knowledge of the truth, and what if any part of it did they leave behind for later generations? There may be more support and understanding of the truth than anyone suspects.

I realize what I'm about to postulate next is going to cause disagreement and debate, but it seems plausible to me. Please correct me where you think I've made tactical or logistical errors in my analysis. Ready, Set, Go! ;)

Turning to the war and the technology race, all of Northern Siddarmark would have fallen without the Great Canal Raid. However, the first expeditionary force of the ICA arrived in time to save Glacierheart and drive the AoG all the way back up the Sylmahn Gap. Green Valley would be facing an army that was fully supplied, so there would be more enemy troops, but 30,000 of them would be pikemen, and the horde of Harchongese would have been sent forward trained to be nothing but cannon fodder. By the time the second expeditionary force arrived to shore up the existing fronts, a lot of those Harchongese serfs would be pushing up daisies. The front that wouldn't be covered would be the route through the Northland Gap and Midhold province, which would have caused a major problem. The final expeditionary force could have held Siddar City and probably stopped the invasion if they arrived in time, and winter would have done a lot of the work for the allies. Clearing out the remnants of the AoG from Northern Siddarmark would be a lot more difficult, but a lot more of them would be dead by now. (RFC is probably laughing his head off at my analysis at this point!)

I realize RFC wrote that Magwair had almost masterminded the greatest military campaign in Safehold history, but the vastly increased number of green, ill armed, and completely untrained AoG troops who would have arrived at the front couldn't have forced the Sylmahn gap or pushed the second expeditionary force out of Glacierheart. There may not have been a major battle in the woods of South March, but the Desnairans would have starved on their own, and the Dohlarans would have had to retreat because Hanth was sitting on both army's supply lines - presuming Duke Eastshare got to Fort Tairys in time.

So without the Great Canal Raid the land war would be much more difficult and the citizens of Siddarmark would have paid a much higher price in lives and suffering as the Inquisition made an example of them, but the allies would have retaken all of Siddarmark eventually. Their advantage on the technology curve is simply that steep, and they'd have saved the most populated provinces from which the new Siddarmarkan troops have been recruited.

So let's be glad Merlin had that epiphany about building ironclads. As bad as the the Sword of Schueler and the war in Siddarmark have been, it would have been infinitely worse if the AoG had pushed all the way to Old Province.

But...

Facing the Harchongese as cannon fodder this year rather than as 600,000 riflemen next year because of the canal raid makes me wonder whether it made the overall situation better in the long run, or worse... ;)

"Oh bother", said Pooh as he glanced through the airlock window at the helmet he'd forgotten to wear.
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Re: Is Clyntahn an atheist?
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Thu Jan 08, 2015 4:52 am

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McGuiness wrote:
fallsfromtrees wrote:Since Shan-Wei was in charge of terra-forming Safehold, she was probably responsible for establishing most or all of the locations for settlement. Wiping out all ofhte places she set up settlements would have effectively meant wiping out 90-98% of the humans on Safehold, thereby finishing the job for the Gbaba. Wasn't gonna happen.

And except for the canal raid, which absolutely could not have been foreseen, the attack on Siddarmark would have removed Charis' most likely continental ally from play for a very long time - as well as demonstrating to all of the other continental powers the folly of cooperating with Charis. In short it would have guaranteed that 80% of the population of the world would continue to support the church, and with the armies of the CoGA triumphant on the continent, the CoG would have returned its full energy to building the navy required to attack Charis. Granted, this effort would have failed, but the result would have been a standoff for at least Clyntahn's lifetime.
I should clarify - Shan-Wei planted four of her re-educated colonists in Tellesberg, and they founded St. Zherneau's. Obviously if Langhorne or those who survived Pei's vest pocket nuke had suspected, a quick database search would have located the 212 people scattered across Safehold who knew the truth. Fortunately that database was destroyed in the explosion, so the discrepancy that 212 colonists who had been assigned to Alexandria had somehow been reassigned to other enclaves was never caught until OWL checked his intact database.

That brings up the question of what the other 208 colonists did with their knowledge of the truth, and what if any part of it did they leave behind for later generations? There may be more support and understanding of the truth than anyone suspects.

I realize what I'm about to postulate next is going to cause disagreement and debate, but it seems plausible to me. Please correct me where you think I've made tactical or logistical errors in my analysis. Ready, Set, Go! ;)

Turning to the war and the technology race, all of Northern Siddarmark would have fallen without the Great Canal Raid. However, the first expeditionary force of the ICA arrived in time to save Glacierheart and drive the AoG all the way back up the Sylmahn Gap. Green Valley would be facing an army that was fully supplied, so there would be more enemy troops, but 30,000 of them would be pikemen, and the horde of Harchongese would have been sent forward trained to be nothing but cannon fodder. By the time the second expeditionary force arrived to shore up the existing fronts, a lot of those Harchongese serfs would be pushing up daisies. The front that wouldn't be covered would be the route through the Northland Gap and Midhold province, which would have caused a major problem. The final expeditionary force could have held Siddar City and probably stopped the invasion if they arrived in time, and winter would have done a lot of the work for the allies. Clearing out the remnants of the AoG from Northern Siddarmark would be a lot more difficult, but a lot more of them would be dead by now. (RFC is probably laughing his head off at my analysis at this point!)

I realize RFC wrote that Magwair had almost masterminded the greatest military campaign in Safehold history, but the vastly increased number of green, ill armed, and completely untrained AoG troops who would have arrived at the front couldn't have forced the Sylmahn gap or pushed the second expeditionary force out of Glacierheart. There may not have been a major battle in the woods of South March, but the Desnairans would have starved on their own, and the Dohlarans would have had to retreat because Hanth was sitting on both army's supply lines - presuming Duke Eastshare got to Fort Tairys in time.

So without the Great Canal Raid the land war would be much more difficult and the citizens of Siddarmark would have paid a much higher price in lives and suffering as the Inquisition made an example of them, but the allies would have retaken all of Siddarmark eventually. Their advantage on the technology curve is simply that steep, and they'd have saved the most populated provinces from which the new Siddarmarkan troops have been recruited.

So let's be glad Merlin had that epiphany about building ironclads. As bad as the the Sword of Schueler and the war in Siddarmark have been, it would have been infinitely worse if the AoG had pushed all the way to Old Province.

But...

Facing the Harchongese as cannon fodder this year rather than as 600,000 riflemen next year because of the canal raid makes me wonder whether it made the overall situation better in the long run, or worse... ;)

Perhaps, but in MT&T june 896, chapter IX, Merlin, Cayleb, and Stohnar are fairly certain that Eastshare's men are not going to be enough unless something slows down the advance of the CoGA. That's as close as we are going to get the the intentions of RFC, unless he deigns to cast some additional light on the subject. Basically, the CoGA would have been able to punch through the Sylman Gap, and that would have allowed them onto the plains leading to Siddarmark City, with a large maneuvering area. Yes the CoGA would have taken enormous casualties, but the end resutl would have been the destruction of hte entire Charis Expeditionary Force, and the removal of Siddarmark from play as an ally of Charis.
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