Building the Peace

One thing is for sure. If Clyntahn is bumped by an internal coup, things are really going to come unglued. Will the guard purge itself of inquisitors and stand with the coup? Or will the guard support the inquisition? Or maybe the guard fight amongst themselves over who is legit. That is sort of what happened to the RSA when the SOS hit in Siddarmark.

I haven't a clue how it will come out...

Don

Randomiser wrote:Zakharra, you seem to have bought Clyntahn's view of the church as if it were the legitimate and only one. Whereas, actually, Clyntahn is a fantasist megalomaniac and most of the other Vicars hold a view of the Church where they have real power not just the Grand Vicar, which is the view of the church found in the Writ and operative throughout most of Safehold history. Clyntahn has driven them into obedience by fear, but once he has gone they will be reasserting themselves. The Grand Vicar is the most powerful office in the Church, that's why the GoF ensured a nonentity they could control was elected to it. At the time none of them was sufficiently trusted by the others to have the office and they sure weren't going to let it go to anyone competent who might rein in their schemes. Basically he is the Pope, God's direct representative on earth. Once Clyntahn is gone, the more fanatical the lower level Inquisitors are, the more their own faith will require them to obey the Grand Vicar

I haven't bought Clyntahn's view of the Church, I am simply acknowledging how it has worked for the last several decades. If the Grand Vicar acts against the Grand Inquisitor wishes, he dies. It's as simple as that. Cylyntahn had a large chunk of the Vicarate killed on -his- say so because he decided they were traitors and risks to his power. Having the Grand Vicar killed for treason wouldn't make him even blink.Clyntahn is the power in charge of the Church right now and the other members of the Group of Four, and the Grand Vicar, know that if they come under suspicion, Clyntahn will have them removed without hesitation. He has a cadre of fanatics loyal to his view of the Church and to him. If any of them make any moves against his wishes, the crap is going to hit the fan hard. It's very likely that Clyntahn has spies all throughout the Temple Guard. It would be very odd if he didn't. He's a control freak bar none.

Remember more than one Grand Vicar has been killed because he was too inconvenient to have around.

Another thing to think about is this: If just killing Clyntahn and having the GV say he was acting against the Church would stop the Inquisition hierarchy from trying to kill the GV. Why hasn't it been done already? It can't be that simple (relatively), otherwise the G-4 could have done it already. Clyntahn has stacked the upper levels of the Inquisition with people loyal to him and like him and the others would have to remove/neutralize all of them too.

Either way, no matter what happens, if the others do try something, it's going to be a literal bloodbath in the Temple on all sides.

I think that Nynian could bring the Inquisition to heel. I believe she knows which key members to whack and has moles in place to keep a lid on the situation. She can get to Clyntahn whether he is inside the Temple or outside. The only thing keeping her from acting is her distrust of Duachairn and Magwair. I suspect she trusts Duchairn more than Magwair but she needs to trust them both.

This brings me back to my other hobby horse. If Nynian offs Clyntahn, she needs Duchairn and Magwair to reform the CoGA. Magwair and a goodly number of the Vicarate will only go so far to reconcile with the CoC. I can see Nynian aligning with the restructured CoGA to make sure that its reform is sincere and thorough.

If she discovers the archangels are returning, she may want to let them see the world they created. She might well not be persuaded just as Sandaria is not quite persuaded but will hide it better. Bottom line is that if she aligned with the reformed CoGA, she could well keep the CoC out of the bowels of the Temple in order protect the Sleeper. Perhaps she trades keeping the Inner Circle's secret for allowing the return to happen. I would hope they deactivate the OBS, but that's a side issue.

Bottom line is that she becomes an honorable enemy until the Sleeper awakens. This is not a prediction but a hopeful speculation.

Keith_w wrote:I think people are wearing rose coloured glasses when they speak of Clyntahn being overthrown. It ain't going to happen. Unlike Hitler, whose army General staff was still in charge of the Army, although not the Gestapo or SS, if Clyntahn were assassinated, the inquisition would still control the army as well as having the only viable force within the confines of Zion*. Who ever assassinated him would immediately be seized and put to the question, Rayno would immediately purge the remained of the Go4, Grand Vicar Eric would immediately deplore the influence of Shan-wei on them, the inquisitors would run riot through the vicarate purging everyone in sight "just in case". The only difference Clyntahn's assassination might make is to have the senior inquisitors return to Zion to elect a new head of the inquisition, thus leaving the armies temporarily leaderless.

When I speak of viable force, I really mean "able to operate within the temple". Although Nynian Rychtair's group of assassins may be able to depending on their real identities (ie, members of the vicarate) although I doubt it from the text we have had about the vicarate assassinations.

I have mentioned this before but, Is anyone going to NEED to assassinate Clyntahn?

He is overweight, a known sybarite and voluptuary and has a violent and fulminating temper.
(I would hate to think what his cholesterol and blood sugar levels are)

I suggest that he is far more likely to be struck down by apoplexy at the news of another military reverse, or by some taunt to his authority by Diallyd Mab than ever getting an assassin to him.

This has the added plot advantage in that no-one is preparing for the specific event so that any/all responses will have to be "on the fly" unlike an assassination where the plotters will have their plan set up to be triggered. Potential plotters will, doubtless, have a contingency plan but that cannot cover all eventualities in advance.

Apoplexy, not Assassination.

chrisd wrote:

Keith_w wrote:I think people are wearing rose coloured glasses when they speak of Clyntahn being overthrown. It ain't going to happen. Unlike Hitler, whose army General staff was still in charge of the Army, although not the Gestapo or SS, if Clyntahn were assassinated, the inquisition would still control the army as well as having the only viable force within the confines of Zion*. Who ever assassinated him would immediately be seized and put to the question, Rayno would immediately purge the remained of the Go4, Grand Vicar Eric would immediately deplore the influence of Shan-wei on them, the inquisitors would run riot through the vicarate purging everyone in sight "just in case". The only difference Clyntahn's assassination might make is to have the senior inquisitors return to Zion to elect a new head of the inquisition, thus leaving the armies temporarily leaderless.

When I speak of viable force, I really mean "able to operate within the temple". Although Nynian Rychtair's group of assassins may be able to depending on their real identities (ie, members of the vicarate) although I doubt it from the text we have had about the vicarate assassinations.

I have mentioned this before but, Is anyone going to NEED to assassinate Clyntahn?

He is overweight, a known sybarite and voluptuary and has a violent and fulminating temper.
(I would hate to think what his cholesterol and blood sugar levels are)

I suggest that he is far more likely to be struck down by apoplexy at the news of another military reverse, or by some taunt to his authority by Diallyd Mab than ever getting an assassin to him.

This has the added plot advantage in that no-one is preparing for the specific event so that any/all responses will have to be "on the fly" unlike an assassination where the plotters will have their plan set up to be triggered. Potential plotters will, doubtless, have a contingency plan but that cannot cover all eventualities in advance.

Apoplexy, not Assassination.

Perhaps Apoplexy, and then, as they try to get him to a hospital, assassination?

PeterZ wrote:I think that Nynian could bring the Inquisition to heel. I believe she knows which key members to whack and has moles in place to keep a lid on the situation. She can get to Clyntahn whether he is inside the Temple or outside. The only thing keeping her from acting is her distrust of Duchairn and Magwair. I suspect she trusts Duchairn more than Magwair but she needs to trust them both.

This brings me back to my other hobby horse. If Nynian offs Clyntahn, she needs Duchairn and Magwair to reform the CoGA. Magwair and a goodly number of the Vicarate will only go so far to reconcile with the CoC. I can see Nynian aligning with the restructured CoGA to make sure that its reform is sincere and thorough.

If she discovers the archangels are returning, she may want to let them see the world they created. She might well not be persuaded just as Sandaria is not quite persuaded but will hide it better. Bottom line is that if she aligned with the reformed CoGA, she could well keep the CoC out of the bowels of the Temple in order protect the Sleeper. Perhaps she trades keeping the Inner Circle's secret for allowing the return to happen. I would hope they deactivate the OBS, but that's a side issue.

Bottom line is that she becomes an honorable enemy until the Sleeper awakens. This is not a prediction but a hopeful speculation.

As near as I can determine there is absolutely no textev that Nynian can assassinate Clyntahn inside the temple. We do know that she has at least one source of information in there, but that's it. Since her people are killing off vicars in job lots at the moment, if she could get to Clyntahn, do you think he'd still be alive? Especially given her dream of what the CoGA ought to be?

She was a believer, but nobody who gets the Big Reveal, especially in Nimue's cave, is going to believe in the CoGA afterward. It's going to take her some time to come to terms with having her understanding of the universe shattered. She certainly got quite a lot more than she expected when Merlin called her bluff and demonstrated that he could indeed take her to Zion in a single day!

Whether her faith in God will survive, we'll have to wait and see. She might become even more bloodthirsty than she is now. She's already having her people assassinate corrupt, perverted vicars, so how much more anger will she feel toward the evil men who she now knows lead a church which is a complete fraud, designed to keep mankind in manacles forever?

I'm betting the the Spanish parts of Seijin Kohdy's journal may play a big part in her ultimate beliefs. After all, Kohdy spoke with a "demon" and it changed his outlook on the War of the Angels - and which side he fought for, as near as we can guess from the textev. So Merlin and Nimue being clearly "demonic" isn't going to shake her as much as it would most others. (Especially since the Archangels were only "angelic" due to the use of technology that Merlin can easily duplicate, yet he chose not to go that route.)

So no, Nynian won't become the focus of radical reform among the vicarate and the leadership of the CoGA, but she may become its worst enemy. Considering how bloodthirsty she is now, that's saying something!

She isn't being brought all the way inside the onion at this point, even though she'll be able to converse with OWL, Nahrmahn, and the inner circle. The little fact that the Archangels are set to return in some form or the other may not find it's way into her "Welcome to the Big Reveal" packet for quite some time, if it does at all.

She's unlikely to show all her cards and reveal the extent and identities of those in her organization, so I just don't know how much Merlin and the Inner Circle will be able to trust her. Like Merlin, she has an agenda that doesn't necessarily serve Charis. I don't think she'll turn on them, but I do expect her to continue to pursue her own purposes, even if they're counter to what Merlin or the EoC might want.

Sandaria really worries me, but Merlin is handling this as well as Staynair ever did - even quoting him verbatim at times. Perhaps talking with the Archbishop of the CoC who managed to keep his faith despite the Big Reveal will help her accept the reality that the entire belief system of humanity is a complete fraud.

Or maybe not...

chrisd wrote:

Keith_w wrote:I think people are wearing rose coloured glasses when they speak of Clyntahn being overthrown. It ain't going to happen. Unlike Hitler, whose army General staff was still in charge of the Army, although not the Gestapo or SS, if Clyntahn were assassinated, the inquisition would still control the army as well as having the only viable force within the confines of Zion*. Who ever assassinated him would immediately be seized and put to the question, Rayno would immediately purge the remained of the Go4, Grand Vicar Eric would immediately deplore the influence of Shan-wei on them, the inquisitors would run riot through the vicarate purging everyone in sight "just in case". The only difference Clyntahn's assassination might make is to have the senior inquisitors return to Zion to elect a new head of the inquisition, thus leaving the armies temporarily leaderless.

When I speak of viable force, I really mean "able to operate within the temple". Although Nynian Rychtair's group of assassins may be able to depending on their real identities (ie, members of the vicarate) although I doubt it from the text we have had about the vicarate assassinations.

I have mentioned this before but, Is anyone going to NEED to assassinate Clyntahn?

He is overweight, a known sybarite and voluptuary and has a violent and fulminating temper.
(I would hate to think what his cholesterol and blood sugar levels are)

I suggest that he is far more likely to be struck down by apoplexy at the news of another military reverse, or by some taunt to his authority by Diallyd Mab than ever getting an assassin to him.

This has the added plot advantage in that no-one is preparing for the specific event so that any/all responses will have to be "on the fly" unlike an assassination where the plotters will have their plan set up to be triggered. Potential plotters will, doubtless, have a contingency plan but that cannot cover all eventualities in advance.

Apoplexy, not Assassination.

Considering his lifestyle and size, he's probably disgustingly healthy. He's the Grand Inquisitor, he can afford the best. And he'd get the best too, with plenty of guards and trusted doctors. So any assassination attempts in a hospital (which would likely be in the Temple itself, nothing but the best for the Vicarate), I do not see having a good chance at succeeding at assassinating Clyntahn.

I wonder if have they have a med center inthe temple comparable to the one in Nimue's cave...
Don

the chief inquisitor is crazy, so if removed, even the more rabid anti charis church members would be more stable. Also, fear of the crazy guy is what is keeping the vicars under control, if dead, they would want someone to pay for all their woes they endured. the inquisition did put alot of people to the question. so the inquisition is sure to suffer.