Declaration of Rights/Emancipation Proclamation

If Empire of Charis and Republic of Siddermark jointly issued an Emancipation Proclamation along with a Declaration of Individual Rights, it would eat at the political structures of Harchong, Desnair,The Border States and Dohlar. Perhaps not a lot immediately but over time it sets the base rights of the People of Safehold. This War is beyond the battles in the fields and oceans, it is the need to change the historical beliefs of an individual’s place in society and the relationship with the Church. All human dignity, basic human rights and individual responsibilities need to be delineated in a declaration that is in tune with The Writ and with the historical documents of the Federation. This is spiritual manna to provide food for thought across the entire society.

I would expect this document would be an amalgamation of Magna Carta, Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights. IIRC Charis is the original government on Safehold that abolished Slavery and Serfdom. To have the Republic and the Royal Leaders of the EoC sign the document and propagate it through the World would be a valuable effort. Owl could assist where the Local governments and Church try to suppress the document.

This would be a Meme of the greatest value. What is more alluring than individual rights and universal suffrage?

Well, it sounds good in theory. But how would they enforce it? Are they going to kill everyone who disagrees? It's difficult enough in Charis and Chisholm, with large numbers of nobles and factory owners who still treat the common workers badly. Start there, first.

ayg wrote:Well, it sounds good in theory. But how would they enforce it? Are they going to kill everyone who disagrees? It's difficult enough in Charis and Chisholm, with large numbers of nobles and factory owners who still treat the common workers badly. Start there, first.

Actually, they have. Part of becoming a member of the Charisian Empire is the abolition of serfdom/slavery, although a number of years to implement the process is allowed.

Child labor is also being eliminated, It's now officially outlawed in Old Charis, although Chisholm hasn't implemented it yet, nor has the rest of the EoC. The definition of "child" may end at age 12, given that the CoC (and supposedly the CoGA) give six years of free schooling to each child, so I'd suspect it's at least 13. I can't find any hard textev on exactly what the empire's age is for illegal "child labor."

It certainly wouldn't hurt to post the EoC's laws regarding the abolition of serfdom/slavery and their child labor laws all over Safehold. That would plant the idea that there's a better way - and a better place if slaves or serfs care to make a break for the EoC.

The attitude that God created all Adams and all Eves equally, and that one should prosper according to his hard work and merit will appeal to the countless millions in those lower classes, and would result in some unrest in some of the nastier places like Desnair and Harchong. Frankly, it sounds like Desnair is about due for a major slave uprising based on their social attitudes!

McGuiness wrote:Child labor is also being eliminated, It's now officially outlawed in Old Charis, although Chisholm hasn't implemented it yet, nor has the rest of the EoC. The definition of "child" may end at age 12, given that the CoC (and supposedly the CoGA) give six years of free schooling to each child, so I'd suspect it's at least 13. I can't find any hard textev on exactly what the empire's age is for illegal "child labor."

It might even be 11, if they start school at 5 as they did in England, and 11 was the age at which the 11-Plus examination was given which determined your future educational prospects.

Keith_w wrote:

McGuiness wrote:Child labor is also being eliminated, It's now officially outlawed in Old Charis, although Chisholm hasn't implemented it yet, nor has the rest of the EoC. The definition of "child" may end at age 12, given that the CoC (and supposedly the CoGA) give six years of free schooling to each child, so I'd suspect it's at least 13. I can't find any hard textev on exactly what the empire's age is for illegal "child labor."

It might even be 11, if they start school at 5 as they did in England, and 11 was the age at which the 11-Plus examination was given which determined your future educational prospects.

The minimum age to work in a manufactory in Old Charis at the moment is actually 15, and that law is gradually spreading and being enforced throughout the EoC. The textev is from this scene from BSRA, where Howsmyn is railing against the shoddy labor practices of Traivyr Kairee:

"“What sort of accident?” Ironhill turned back to his friend, and Howsmyn’s lips twisted in disgust.

“The sort of accident someone like him attracts like a lodestone draws iron filings. He doesn’t train his people properly, he doesn’t worry about the dangers of the machinery around them, and he prefers ‘hiring’ children because he can get them so much more cheaply. And he managed to get three of them killed today. A pair of brothers—ten and eleven, if you please—and their fourteen-year-old cousin who tried to get them out of the shafting.”

“I hadn’t heard about that,” Ironhill said quietly.

“And the odds are that you wouldn’t have, if you and I weren’t having this conversation,” Howsmyn replied bitterly. “After all, he’s scarcely the only one who uses children, now is he? That’s exactly why Rhaiyan and I fought so hard to get the laws against hiring children through the Council. And why we were both so unhappy about delaying their effective date to provide an ‘adjustment period.’ ”
Howsmyn looked as if he were tempted to spit on the polished marble floor, and Ironhill sighed.

“I understand, and I was on your side, if you’ll recall. But there truly was some point to the argument that yanking everyone under the age of fifteen out of the manufactories is going to cause a lot of dislocation. And whether you like it or not, Ehdwyrd, it’s also true that a lot of households who depend in full or in part on the wages their children bring home are going to get hurt along the way.”
“I didn’t say it would be easy, and neither Rhaiyan nor I ever argued that it would be painless. But it needs to be done, and Kairee is a prime example of why."

So 15 is now the minimum age in the EoC to work in a manufactory, although midshipmen go to sea as early as age 11, as we saw with Hektor. So the definition of "child labor" differs by the work performed. I can't imagine that children on farms aren't working from a very early age - after all, I started "working" the day we moved to a farm when I was five. I wasn't driving tractors and doing dangerous work at a young age though, which is what the child labor laws are designed to prevent. (Unless you consider herding or milking recalcitrant cows dangerous work, and it certainly can be!)

Those laws also help ensure that whenever possible, children in the EoC are able to attend all six years of schooling that the CoC offers.

ayg wrote:Well, it sounds good in theory. But how would they enforce it? Are they going to kill everyone who disagrees? It's difficult enough in Charis and Chisholm, with large numbers of nobles and factory owners who still treat the common workers badly. Start there, first.

The Idea is not to enforce but to create the meme as a element of equality and rights in the mind of the Safehold population. Offer something from Charis that appeals to the common man and is food for thought. The changing of the philosophical underpinnings of Safehold Society will be continuing long after the CoGA is reformed

dwileye13 wrote:

ayg wrote:Well, it sounds good in theory. But how would they enforce it? Are they going to kill everyone who disagrees? It's difficult enough in Charis and Chisholm, with large numbers of nobles and factory owners who still treat the common workers badly. Start there, first.

The Idea is not to enforce but to create the meme as a element of equality and rights in the mind of the Safehold population. Offer something from Charis that appeals to the common man and is food for thought. The changing of the philosophical underpinnings of Safehold Society will be continuing long after the CoGA is reformed

It's an excellent idea, and it will undercut the support (what there is of it) among the lower classes for their state in life, when clearly they could do better in Charis. Then they'll wonder "Why doesn't every ruler believe this and treat all people with respect and decency?"

The ideas of equality and human rights - or at the very least the abomination of slavery and serfdom will resonate with those slaves and serfs.

Remember, Harchong's greatest fear is a slave rebellion, and they've had several. They're so terrified of them that they don't intend to allow any of the men in the Harchongese million plus army that's waiting to descend on Siddarmark like a plague of locusts next Spring to return home alive. The ruling classes honestly feel that the proper role of slaves in war is to serve as cannon fodder. Now the Temple guard has had the temerity to not only train those slaves to be soldiers, they've also armed them with over 600,000 rifles! That isn't going to go over well if tens of thousands of them surrender and want to go home.

Desnair just lost a huge amount of its ruling nobility, and it practices outright slavery. OOPS!

Harchong and Desnair may soon live in interesting times!

Why you insist in transform Charis in the United States?

Can they try to be original, free but different?

Is a cliche in so many books, is like no country can be free, happy, bla bla bla if it doesn't imitate the US.

Who says that anybody wants to transform Charis into the US?

After all, Charis has a royal family worthy of keeping around.

Glowfish wrote:Why you insist in transform Charis in the United States?

Can they try to be original, free but different?

Is a cliche in so many books, is like no country can be free, happy, bla bla bla if it doesn't imitate the US.

Glowfish wrote:Why you insist in transform Charis in the United States?

Can they try to be original, free but different?

Is a cliche in so many books, is like no country can be free, happy, bla bla bla if it doesn't imitate the US.

This isn't about making Charis into the United States. The U.S. is not the only country in the world or in history that has a declaration of basic rights and has outlawed slavery.