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Logic behind splitting Lacoon?

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Re: Logic behind splitting Lacoon?
Post by lyonheart   » Thu Jan 01, 2015 4:59 am

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Hi Duckk,

Sorry to get back so late to this thread, but the holidays are distracting, so I apologise for dredging this up again, but I do feel responsible to answer all the posts addressed to me if I can.

First of all, it's embarrassing to admit but I've spent well over a thousand hours a year on the honorverse since I succumbed to it ten years ago, with the exception of my time in Iraq, trying to figure things out; and as RFC could vouch for himself, my copies of his books are literally filled with post-it notes, which is why I'm irked when the textev isn't followed or at least a polite explanation provided of why it wasn't.

Secondly, I didn't say either of these smaller BCP's had to have 300 pods to start with; indeed before SFtS, RFC or the MWW had written the Agamemnon had only around 280-288 pods for 14+ minutes of fire, back in AAC etc.

How you get to over 300 pods for BCP's so much smaller is your problem, if you insist they carry so many, not mine.

Thirdly, if you respected the fans a little, or showed a decent respect or simple courtesy by explaining your thinking as was done in the great resize project, I'd have far more respect for your animus now.

I've spent much time here and elsewhere offering possible solutions to evident plot holes, so please keep that in mind.

A simple explanation would do wonders all round, and could have been provided in HoS as an appendix that most fans would have found delightful if not a godsend.

From the bar discussions I recall, we were trying to guess the number of pods the IAN and GSN BCP's carried; not trying to force them to carry a rather ridiculous minimum of 300+; as I recall some suggested only 120-160 pods for the IAN, and up around 200 for the GSN, the point many posters made was the stacked launch potential being the whole point of such designs not their lack of endurance, which the MWW mentioned in the different
design philosophies regarding BC design back in the SVW appendix, where the Nike had 25% more broadside missile tubes [25 to 20] while Sultan carried 25% more missiles because the peeps saw their BC's as fast scaled down extensions of their wall, while the RMN believed BC's had little chance against any wallers [RMN BC's were only used strictly for screening the wall], theirs were designed more for independent operations, where overwhelming the enemy quickly was the main object, so even tackling two Sultans simultaneously successfully despite only a 3% increase in mass over just one Sultan was very possible.

Thus the design philosophy of the BCP in general seemed in line with previous RMN BC's, despite all the criticism in HoS etc, especially since the stated 85+ Agamemnon's built is far more than most expected.

I was one of those surprised by the 25% increase in pods the Agamemnon's could carry as a result of SFtS, NTM the implication they had previously fired some 56 pods, ie 784 Mk-16's at Bogey One at Solon; or potentially 3,920 for the 5 BCP's compared to the 276 Mk-16's each of the AAC textev, not 336 from 24 pods [how they fitted the 276 missiles into missile pods of 14 each was never explained], but this isn't about the pathetic RMN missile volleys at Solon, that exercised so many back at the bar, since HH-A had to lose at least once.

Remember when HH-A was bragging to Filareta about how all the SDP's she commanded could control over 200 MDM's each, was she thinking about Solon where 144 was the most Imperator and Intolerant could do apparently?

Granted Keyholes shift fire control between offensive and defensive missions, it still seems rather limited compared to the numbers each of the RHN SDP's managed to control with their inferior tech [180-1800 each].

L


[quote="Duckk"][quote]Except the Courvosier II BCP was described in War of Honor as being only ~1.3 MT not 1.75 [the IAN's BCP's were in the 1.1 MT range], but Bu9 decided to disregard almost all such numeric details through out the series without any attempt to explain any of their decisions by getting RFC to approve their fiat figures in HoS despite all the obvious conflicts.[/quote]

I'd like to see you shove 300-ish pods into a BC hull and still have room left over for little things like crew and propulsion. It pisses me off that you think we discarded things willy nilly, as if we didn't give a shit about what we were doing. I damn well guarantee that we spent far more time than you playing around with how these ships work, and as a consequence of that some things that David wrote flat out doesn't work.[/quote]
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Re: Logic behind splitting Lacoon?
Post by lyonheart   » Thu Jan 01, 2015 5:05 am

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Hi Jonathan S,

I thought the reference was in War of Honor, and digging through all the books, SITS, bar discussion hard copies I made etc, is a bit much; but I do remember the bar discussions citing those figures from someplace rather authoritative.

Duckk's ire has to be based on some RFC figures somewhere, and it could well be from some of the MWW's posts that weren't recorded at fifth imperium.

At the moment, that's the best I can suggest.

L


Jonathan_S wrote:
lyonheart wrote:Hi Vince,

Except the Courvosier II BCP was described in War of Honor as being only ~1.3 MT not 1.75 [the IAN's BCP's were in the 1.1 MT range], but Bu9 decided to disregard almost all such numeric details through out the series without any attempt to explain any of their decisions by getting RFC to approve their fiat figures in HoS despite all the obvious conflicts.
Do you have a quote handy for that? I combed through WoH and couldn't find a single absolute or relative refernce to the size of the Courvoisier II or the IAN's Thor-class BC(P)s.

I finally realized you might have gotten the book wrong and found a hint on the GSN BC(P)s in AAC, where RHN Rear Admiral Beach think the RMN BC(P)s are considerably larger than [what the RHN intel lists for] the GSN ones. But nothing that would let you nail it down any more accurately that between 1 - 2 mtons and "considerably smaller" than RMN BC(P)s [which after action RHN intel placed at "somewhere around one-point-seven to one-point-eight megatons"]. But still nothing on the IAN ones.

(And if you wanted to explain that discrepancy it you could simply claim that RHN intel had bad data on the Courvoisier II - unless there's a more authoritative listing of their mass that I didn't find)
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Re: Logic behind splitting Lacoon?
Post by lyonheart   » Thu Jan 01, 2015 5:17 am

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Hi Armed Neo-Bob,

I like Duckk too, we go back years; I met him at HonorCon in 2013 as well I think, but we didn't get into much of an exchange of data, since I tried to attend all the RFC sessions.

It's been over ten years since War of Honor in 2003, and everyone's mental picture has expanded over all the potential developments since, so expecting data to still be pegged as it was when RFC wrote WroH is a bit much.

I've suggested publishing the original outdated portions of the honorverse bible might be another rather remunerative book for RFC, which some posters here and at the bar have enthusiastically embraced, especially when short of the new stuff, but the HoS series may be it.

L


Armed Neo-Bob wrote:
Relax wrote:*quote="lyonheart"*Hi Vince,

Except the Courvosier II BCP was described in War of Honor as being only ~1.3 MT not 1.75 [the IAN's BCP's were in the 1.1 MT range], but Bu9 decided to disregard almost all such numeric details through out the series without any attempt to explain any of their decisions by getting RFC to approve their fiat figures in HoS despite all the obvious conflicts.

L
*quote*

Yup. Never understood why on earth they did that on GSN BCP. Fell through the cracks probably or RFC really did ret-con it. Nit pic really other than they did not deign to tell us the reason. :P


It was probably just a typo or misprint; in rough figures, it was probably supposed to be 1.8MT in the first place. If you proof it fast, you miss it. Just ask for a clarification, BuNine could check the notes on it. They do have an errata list.

Lyon, you never heard of tact, did you? And you got Duckk up on the wrong side of the bed. :shock:

Regards,
Rob
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Re: Logic behind splitting Lacoon?
Post by lyonheart   » Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:18 am

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Hi SharkHunter,

While others have dealt with the Warshawski Sails aspect of your post, adding a single BCP [though I'd expect them to always operate in in pairs] to the mix when BF SD's are apparently quite dead when hit from just 125-150 MDM's, and your assumed 8 DD's each have at least 10 pods each available besides 40 for your Sag-C['s], for ~1680 Mk-16's in a single volley, given the ammunition ship that accompanied Commodore Magellan, a BCP able to control evidently 784 more Mk-16's before getting into rotating fire control links, would seem to confirm your supposition of being able to potentially kill up to 20 BF SD's in a single volley.

OTOH, I don't expect the BF to have 10-20 SD's anywhere near such wormhole defense forces, or the GA to have so little where they suspect so many BF SD's might be. ;)

L


SharkHunter wrote:I just had an interesting thought that fits here as well as anywhere else [any bc(p) thread, for example], but all the way back in Honor of the Queen we read that Warshawski sails DRAW power to the ship, meaning that a ship on station "in Hyper" doesn't have to use it's fusion bunkerage a whole lot if at all.

So, Laccoon II wise, you're a Sag-C captain with your accompanying DDs and the dropped off LACs on station out there in the wormhole boondocks a long way from home, which is enough to give just about any medium to large FF formation the mother of all headaches if they try to take it back. Meanwhile, bring in ONE bc(p) and park it just outside the hyper limit /resonance zone in that system.

330 pods * 14 Mark-16-G missiles, plus what the Sag C and destroyers add to the mix. Now you're likely up to taking out 10-20 SDs, let alone FF battle cruiser task group size formations. Yes/no?
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Re: Logic behind splitting Lacoon?
Post by stewart   » Thu Jan 01, 2015 9:10 pm

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Back to the topic of the thread ....

As others have posted, Lancoon I was primarily to get the Manty Merchant shipping home safe so it wouldn't be "Saltashed"

Opinions will vary depending on point of view, but Lancoon I was not economic warfare. There was no blockade set, no economic seizure of assets.

It DID remove Manty competition from the Solly area. The fact that the Solly lines had not developed their shipping and instead relied on the Manty Merchant hulls was THEIR lack of planning.

Lancoon II started, effectively, AFTER New Tuscany and Spindle. Lancoon II was still a bloodless operation that the SL could back off from. Dispatch Boats and Registered News Agencies were unimpeded.

If there is a Lancoon III it would likely be tactical and commerce raids from the new-acquired worm hole termanii.

-- Stewart
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Re: Lacoon III?
Post by SharkHunter   » Fri Jan 02, 2015 6:21 pm

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--snipping--
stewart wrote:Back to the topic of the thread ....

As others have posted, Lancoon I was primarily to get the Manty Merchant shipping home safe so it wouldn't be "Saltashed"

Opinions will vary depending on point of view, but Lancoon I was not economic warfare. There was no blockade set, no economic seizure of assets.

It DID remove Manty competition from the Solly area. The fact that the Solly lines had not developed their shipping and instead relied on the Manty Merchant hulls was THEIR lack of planning.

Lancoon II started, effectively, AFTER New Tuscany and Spindle. Lancoon II was still a bloodless operation that the SL could back off from. Dispatch Boats and Registered News Agencies were unimpeded.

If there is a Lancoon III it would likely be tactical and commerce raids from the new-acquired worm hole termanii.

-- Stewart
How about a "reverse Laccoon" for 3".

I'm thinking of the sequence in aRT where they grabbed about 4 termini in a row. So the reverse sequence goes something like this "how would you like to trade with us instead? we don't even rake off the top when we deliver top of the line GA goods to your system doorstep", and if you sign here on the dotted line, we make OFS go away.
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Re: Logic behind splitting Lacoon?
Post by Duckk   » Fri Jan 02, 2015 7:56 pm

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Lacoon II always had open commerce raiding as part of its operations. From MoH:

Faces tightened around the table with his last sentence. Case Lacoön was the Royal Manticoran Navy's plan to close all wormhole nexii under its control to Solarian traffic. Or, rather, that was the first phase of Lacoön. The second phase included active commerce raiding and the extension of de facto Manticoran control to every wormhole nexus within its reach, regardless of who that nexus nominally belonged to.
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Re: Logic behind splitting Lacoon?
Post by stewart   » Sat Jan 03, 2015 1:32 am

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Duckk wrote:Lacoon II always had open commerce raiding as part of its operations. From MoH:

Faces tightened around the table with his last sentence. Case Lacoön was the Royal Manticoran Navy's plan to close all wormhole nexii under its control to Solarian traffic. Or, rather, that was the first phase of Lacoön. The second phase included active commerce raiding and the extension of de facto Manticoran control to every wormhole nexus within its reach, regardless of who that nexus nominally belonged to.


-----------------

and offering the GA / Havenite Sector merchant trade to those who wished it; (and, oh by the way, helping break OFS's grip on the Verge)

-- Stewart
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Re: Lacoon III?
Post by Zakharra   » Sat Jan 03, 2015 4:14 am

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SharkHunter wrote:--snipping--
stewart wrote:Back to the topic of the thread ....

As others have posted, Lancoon I was primarily to get the Manty Merchant shipping home safe so it wouldn't be "Saltashed"

Opinions will vary depending on point of view, but Lancoon I was not economic warfare. There was no blockade set, no economic seizure of assets.

It DID remove Manty competition from the Solly area. The fact that the Solly lines had not developed their shipping and instead relied on the Manty Merchant hulls was THEIR lack of planning.

Lancoon II started, effectively, AFTER New Tuscany and Spindle. Lancoon II was still a bloodless operation that the SL could back off from. Dispatch Boats and Registered News Agencies were unimpeded.

If there is a Lancoon III it would likely be tactical and commerce raids from the new-acquired worm hole termanii.

-- Stewart
How about a "reverse Laccoon" for 3".

I'm thinking of the sequence in aRT where they grabbed about 4 termini in a row. So the reverse sequence goes something like this "how would you like to trade with us instead? we don't even rake off the top when we deliver top of the line GA goods to your system doorstep", and if you sign here on the dotted line, we make OFS go away.



In Lacoon I and II, they grabbed control of more than just 4. Lacoon II is they grab control of as many as they can reach and hold, no matter who owns them, SL or independent.
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Re: Lacoon III?
Post by SharkHunter   » Sat Jan 03, 2015 1:04 pm

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--snipping--
Zakharra wrote:
SharkHunter wrote:How about a "reverse Laccoon" for 3"? I'm thinking of the sequence in aRT where they grabbed about 4 termini in a row. So the reverse sequence goes something like this "how would you like to trade with us instead? we don't even rake off the top when we deliver top of the line GA goods to your system doorstep", and if you sign here on the dotted line, we make OFS go away.


In Lacoon I and II, they grabbed control of more than just 4. Lacoon II is they grab control of as many as they can reach and hold, no matter who owns them, SL or independent.
Yes, that is correct. Reread the section, I thought they'd taken four but Commordore Magellan's squadrons are the sequence I was referring to: [quote="A Rising Thunder"]Of course, he hadn’t had to make the trip the long way. Instead, he’d moved transited from the Manticoran Junction to Beowulf, then crossed sixty-three light-years from Beowulf to the Roulette System, then transited the Roulette-Limbo hyper bridge and crossed another forty-nine light-years of hyperspace from Limbo to Agueda.

Spreading sunshine and light the entire way, he reflected. Amazing how unpopular we are.

Amazing, perhaps, but scarcely surprising. Roulette, Limbo, and Agueda were all independent (or at least nominally so) star systems.[\quote]
Independent, AKA the kind of system that might benefit from being freed from the OFS skim-off, assisting the Manties in setting up their own junction termini/inspections a la Fearless at Basilisk, and getting back into the business of doing business with the GA instead of the SL for a while. Given that Captain Paiffi gives some grudging respect to the Commodore for getting his people out of any line of fire, I'm sure there's be an amount of additional respect if freighters started piling up in the system, and the GA tells him "look, why don't we use our LACs to help you encourage folks to get inspected, free of contraband and genetic slaves (to encourage the slime to stay out of the system), and let some of these good independent operating folks get on their way..."
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