Best use of the Agamemnons (BC(P))--and other Ships

Yes, yes, I know what you have said. I disagree, and we've gone over all the arguments. I was only responding to Fester because he clearly misunderstood the argument. I don't see a need to go over all this again, but I really hate it when someone completely misrepresents what I say. Sorry.

JeffEngel wrote:

Pearls of Weber wrote:"The warship-building capacity of the SLN is concentrated in perhaps a couple of dozen major nodes. There are any number of star systems within the League which could become major warship-building centers, but they haven't been developed. This has two major implications. (A) The warship design and building industry is very much a "closed community." Not only that, but certain building centers specialize in certain types of construction and maintenance. Eighty percent of the existing yards doing active construction specialize in supporting Frontier Fleet, and build nothing heavier than battlecruisers...(snip) (B) Because there are so few major building nodes, the entire SLN's current building capacity constitutes one huge potential point source failure. In effect, the SLN has an entire succession of Grendelsbanes, of varying degrees of vulnerability. Again, this is something Frontier Fleet is aware of and has pointed out (without much effect) to Battle Fleet."

Since we know that FF units are toast against current RMN tech, once Kingsford's raiding strategy goes into effect, he's effectively putting FF into the grinder in hopes of stopping the bleeding in Battle Fleet. It won't be long before Frontier Fleet needs those yards to start making up losses and repairing ships. At the same time, the RMN won't want FF to start making up losses, as that might introduce opportunities to significantly upgrade the Solarian BC's. Ergo... early on, those twelve building centers will likely go ka-boom. I'd think that it wouldn't take much more than a couple of my mini-squadron plus a 2nd generation CLAC to inflict a Buttercup/Lovat style wipeout of ANY of the twelve Solarian fleet bases outside of the Sol System.

Two dozen yards, about 80% FF and 20% BF (alternatively: 80% BC on down, 20% able to do wallers too). So about 5 BF and about 19 FF.

Punching out all the FF complexes may be time-consuming and would represent a wave of attacks that may be politically awkward, if the GA is supposed to be the plucky defenders against Solarian aggression.

But any one of them would be a fairly easy target, presumably they are all known and no trouble to find, so the time-consuming part of it is livable.

Politically, the GA may not have to punch out ones that are not in fact producing more FF units (Kingsford will have a hard time getting crews into deathtraps if FF ships go up like popcorn as much as BF ones have); the GA can destroy them with all due care and more to preventing loss of life while underlining their technical advantages (just like the Cutworm attacks on Haven that way) to preserve the impressions of both special care for lives and overwhelming qualitative advantage; and that sort of example may make other such yard complexes just opt out of working: if you can avoid being blown up by simply building freighters instead, and freighters are in high demand... Frontier Fleet can just get in line.

Hitting the smaller number of BF yards would make for individually scarier attacks, again potentially troubling the political aims, but again it'd be easy to frame that as doing the most to protect lives and defend the GA worlds, only at some remove. And heck - they can remind people that wallers those yards would build would be deathtraps anyway, so they're doing SLN personnel a favor by destroying the coffin-building facilities.[/quote]


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Another thought is GA Task Force arrives at system with shipyard and after BF / FF ships there either surrender or are captured, system with yard surrenders with yard and infrastructure INTACT.
Decides life as an independent is better than under OFS / SL bootheel.

The system yard is not up to RMN / RHN technology standards, but CAN provide minor GA Fleet support and has new life supporting GA merchants under Harrington Doctrine.

just an idle thought

-- Stewart

We have full databases from something like 200 Battle Fleet SDs and dozens of Frontier Fleet BC, so we should know where are those shipyards

stewart wrote:(1) Neutrality is effective ONLY if it is recognized
In WWII Switzerland and Sweeden were neutral and not invaded by Germany because (a) there were multiple routes around them -- Germany had already occupied Norway and from the Winter War of 1940, had Finland and an ally against USSR. Switzerland was not blocking Germany's routes to either Italy or France.

Sweden compromised it's neutrality both in favour of the 3rd Reich and in favour of the allies. Switzerland had (some of) the rail links through the Alps between Germany & Italy, and had the tunnels wired with explosives in case either Germany or Italy got ideas. (Supposedly the explosives where not removed until years after the war ended.)

PalmerSperry wrote:

stewart wrote:(1) Neutrality is effective ONLY if it is recognized
In WWII Switzerland and Sweeden were neutral and not invaded by Germany because (a) there were multiple routes around them -- Germany had already occupied Norway and from the Winter War of 1940, had Finland and an ally against USSR. Switzerland was not blocking Germany's routes to either Italy or France.

Sweden compromised it's neutrality both in favour of the 3rd Reich and in favour of the allies. Switzerland had (some of) the rail links through the Alps between Germany & Italy, and had the tunnels wired with explosives in case either Germany or Italy got ideas. (Supposedly the explosives where not removed until years after the war ended.)

Yeah Swtzerland's terrain advantages for defense helped it remain pretty neutral during WWII. But I seem to recall reading that even they weren't able (or at least willing) to enforce the neutrality of their airspace - that Germany was able to make military overflights without interference. Mountains bristling with hidden defensive bunkers and guns, and tunnels wired to blow, don't help you with driving back Luftwaffe planes taking a shortcut across your territory.

--snipping--

Jonathan_S wrote: Yeah Switzerland's terrain advantages for defense helped it remain pretty neutral during WWII. But I seem to recall reading that even they weren't able (or at least willing) to enforce the neutrality of their airspace - that Germany was able to make military overflights without interference. Mountains bristling with hidden defensive bunkers and guns, and tunnels wired to blow, don't help you with driving back Luftwaffe planes taking a shortcut across your territory.

True about the terrain advantage, but much of the Swiss heartland is not in the Alps, it was reachable by armed forces. However, during the World Wars, especially II, it wasn't just the terrain advantage, it was also cartographic positioning, because the Nazi's would have loved to take down the Swiss and had drawn up plans to do so. However, the Swiss army mobilized something like a million and a half men in three days, and there wasn't any way to get at the Swiss armies without bogging down in extended battles (vs. the blitzkrieg battles, all won by the 3rd Reich), no simple way to get armor into the mountains where the Swiss would retreat to if attacked. (a strategy called the National Redoubt).

After the Blitzkrieg, at any time those same extremely well trained (and often German speaking) Swiss forces could have come down on the flanks of the logistics train required to support German operations in the rest of Europe. In the economies of war and the need to keep Allied armor off the continent, Hitler was forced to leave them be. The other advantage held by the Swiss was that they had the only currency acceptable for use to neutral parties for critical supplies needed by the German armies, (tungsten, etc.)

Maybe that's where the Maya Sector is headed in the current Honorverse, once the Barregos/Rozak plan is fully effected and they get their near- Manticoran quality ships delivered.

If we're going to go through this all again, let's be clear what we are talking about.

Sharkhunter said that Manticore would have to disperse its ships to defend Zanzibar, Alizon, and all the other small members of the Manticoran Alliance. I pointed out that Manticore does not need to protect those systems against the Solarian League because they are not targets. They are not members of the Grand Alliance, they are not involved in the war with the League; they are neutral nations.

Those are the neutral nations we are talking about here. There is no reason for the League to attack them. They are further away than Manticore, and it takes a couple months just to get to Manticore. Manticore (and now the Grand Alliance) are the people that the League has a conflict with. The League has been presenting this whole situation as the belligerence of Manticore. They are starting to have trouble justifying the whole situation. The League members are already starting to look more critically at the League foreign policy. If the League starts attacking neutral nations, they are effectively declaring a war of aggression against the galaxy. That would not go over very well, either at home or abroad. They are still trying to look like the good guys.

The League war is not World War II. Germany did essentially declare a war of aggression against Europe. The League cannot afford to do that. They could not possibly justify it, no matter how hard they tried to spin it.

--snipping--

SWM wrote:If we're going to go through this all again, let's be clear what we are talking about.

Sharkhunter said that Manticore would have to disperse its ships to defend Zanzibar, Alizon, and all the other small members of the Manticoran Alliance. I pointed out that Manticore does not need to protect those systems against the Solarian League because they are not targets. They are not members of the Grand Alliance, they are not involved in the war with the League; they are neutral nations...
...

The League war is not World War II. Germany did essentially declare a war of aggression against Europe. The League cannot afford to do that. They could not possibly justify it, no matter how hard they tried to spin it.

Actually, my argument isn't necessarily that the RMN is going to disperse their fleet to cover their Alliance partners (as they did against Haven), it's that the Mandarin's strategy of desperation demands two things, a) the acquisition of RMN or Haven technology, and b) lies that they can sell to enough of the League assembly to keep the general population of the core worlds asleep instead of "at the wheel", aka paying attention.

They've already managed to engineer about a 4:1 majority against Beowulf in the Solarian Assembly; how many of those core worlds even realize that Alizon, Zanzibar, Yorik*, etc. even exist as independent entities? So my argument is more along the lines that these tiny polities aren't in all that big a hurry to abandon their old Alliance partner's desire or willingness to act in their defense, just in case Kingsford's bosses et. al get the bad idea that they're home systems fair game to acquire said tech under a sellable lie.

*By the way, I don't even think that FF could take any of the former alliance systems even if they tried, because as long as they are allied, those are likely the first non-Talbott sector systems to get Mycroft and long range SDF missiles.

SharkHunter wrote:Actually, my argument isn't necessarily that the RMN is going to disperse their fleet to cover their Alliance partners (as they did against Haven), it's that the Mandarin's strategy of desperation demands two things, a) the acquisition of RMN or Haven technology, and b) lies that they can sell to enough of the League assembly to keep the general population of the core worlds asleep instead of "at the wheel:.

They've already managed to engineer about a 4:1 majority against Beowulf in the Solarian Assembly; how many of those core worlds even realize that Alizon, Zanzibar, Yorik, etc. even exist as independent entities? So my argument is more along the lines that these tiny polities aren't in all that big a hurry to abandon their old Alliance partner's desire or willingness to act in their defense, just in case Kingsford's bosses et. al get the bad idea that they're home systems fair game to acquire said tech under a sellable lie.

I would love to see a SLN raiding squadron roll into the system of a former member of the MA.

First, it would not be possible for it to happen for at least six months due to time required to plan, send orders, assemble the raiders, do some shakedown training, and get them out to the Haven sector with out being able to use any wormholes.

Second, most of these "second rate" former MA systems have defenses in place designed to defend them against heavy raids by RHN squadrons. Something that can beat back Republican ships could shred Solly ships.

Raiding these systems would accomplish exactly nothing but getting SLN spacers killed and pissing off member worlds of the SL.

--snipping--

crewdude48 wrote:I would love to see a SLN raiding squadron roll into the system of a former member of the MA.

First, it would not be possible for it to happen for at least six months due to time required to plan, send orders, assemble the raiders, do some shakedown training, and get them out to the Haven sector with out being able to use any wormholes.

Second, most of these "second rate" former MA systems have defenses in place designed to defend them against heavy raids by RHN squadrons. Something that can beat back Republican ships could shred Solly ships.

Raiding these systems would accomplish exactly nothing but getting SLN spacers killed and pissing off member worlds of the SL.

Precisely the point. Staying allied keeps that tech in place, because we don't know if the Mandarins know enough about these systems to avoid doing ordering something utterly stupid and futile in hopes of ANY victory.