Why would the RMN bother with any new ship designs...

... for the foreseeable book future?

Yes, I realize that am choosing to fall on my sword and commit forum heresy er-- hara kiri, or some such terribly dark and horrible thing.... But... at this point in the book series, HonorVerse, MAlign, SLN, etc.:

Logically, why introduce a new ship type (primarily the CL) at all? As fun as it is to think about, wouldn't the RMN just crank out as many Sag-C's as possible for the foreseeable future, augmenting with the Roland DD's, then start rebuilding at the SD(p) level, and thence down to Nike(s)?

Keep in mind, it's not only shipyard space that the RMN lost, it's all those workers. Wouldn't there be a whole lot of space for mischief in the new ranks (read MAlign troublemakers...) if you don't go with a thoroughly vetted, mostly cast-in-stone ship design that can't get fudged up during construction?

* with a brief note. I put in the words "light cruiser" and then went back and read a gazillion (okay 1200ish) posts on the subject. Before asking my heretical question...

SharkHunter wrote:... for the foreseeable book future?

Yes, I realize that am choosing to fall on my sword and commit forum heresy er-- hara kiri, or some such terribly dark and horrible thing.... But... at this point in the book series, HonorVerse, MAlign, SLN, etc.:

Logically, why introduce a new ship type (primarily the CL) at all? As fun as it is to think about, wouldn't the RMN just crank out as many Sag-C's as possible for the foreseeable future, augmenting with the Roland DD's, then start rebuilding at the SD(p) level, and thence down to Nike(s)?

Keep in mind, it's not only shipyard space that the RMN lost, it's all those workers. Wouldn't there be a whole lot of space for mischief in the new ranks (read MAlign troublemakers...) if you don't go with a thoroughly vetted, mostly cast-in-stone ship design that can't get fudged up during construction?

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Naval design is an ongoing process -- sometimes it results in a ShipAlt -- modification of an ongoing class; sometimes it results in design prototypes and a new class.
The CLAC's were the result of the Trojan Horse project modification of Caravon class cargo ships.
In our universe, the CVE's of WWII were the result of modification of merchant bulk cargo and tanker hulls to make expedient small carriers. Those small carriers are the effective forebears of the later LPH class Helo Carriers and their decendents, the current LHA's and LHD's.

The SLN's current predicament (one of them) is that they sat back for 100 years KNOWING that their designs were supreme. (surprise)

-- Stewart

--snipping--

stewart wrote:

SharkHunter wrote:... for the foreseeable book future?

Logically, why introduce a new ship type (primarily the CL) at all? As fun as it is to think about, wouldn't the RMN just crank out as many Sag-C's as possible for the foreseeable future, augmenting with the Roland DD's, then start rebuilding at the SD(p) level, and thence down to Nike(s)?

Keep in mind, it's not only shipyard space that the RMN lost, it's all those workers. Wouldn't there be a whole lot of space for mischief in the new ranks (read MAlign troublemakers...) if you don't go with a thoroughly vetted, mostly cast-in-stone ship design that can't get fudged up during construction?

---------------

Naval design is an ongoing process -- sometimes it results in a ShipAlt -- modification of an ongoing class; sometimes it results in design prototypes and a new class.
The CLAC's were the result of the Trojan Horse project modification of Caravon class cargo ships.
In our universe, the CVE's of WWII were the result of modification of merchant bulk cargo and tanker hulls to make expedient small carriers. Those small carriers are the effective forebears of the later LPH class Helo Carriers and their decendents, the current LHA's and LHD's.

The SLN's current predicament (one of them) is that they sat back for 100 years KNOWING that their designs were supreme. (surprise)

-- Stewart

Agreed, they can't just sit back and do nothing. So for my question, let's say "in the RMN's next 5-7 years"...., with the known caveat that with the GA in play, AKA Foraker AND Hemphill playing in the same sandbox, good things are going to happen. We also "know" that we've got a shortage of marine transport on the new ship types, etc. so that's an issue.

I guess the big kicker question is what ship changes are going to be required in response to MAlign actions?

Probably because the Author can and might. Yep ... right now what the GA, (Grand Alliance) needs is numbers. But the numbers must be superior enough to remain ... well superior to what the Sollies and MA do have and might be able to produce. Thus the rub. You gotta have enough ships and they must be good enough ships.

Example: WW2 in the Pacific. The USN got caught with its pants down. But once the new construction, (fleet carriers, light carriers, escort carriers, heavy cruisers, light cruisers, big destroyers, etc., etc., plus all the support and invasion ships) kicked in, we kicked butt because the Japanese could not replace their loses.

Right now the Sollie building capacity is still good to go. We do not yet know how good or how much capacity the MA has. No crystal balls. Oyster Bay hurt! If the GA can, then perhaps their best bet is to build new designs AND in the quantity required. Have it both ways. New GA slips dovetail with new design types.

HB of CJ (old coot) Cm.

New ships will likely be a Saganami D or E. D has space for 50 extra Marines and an assault shuttle.

E is Old School Battle Cruiser size and Mounts 20 Mk23's per broadside and SD grasers, a smaller Nike with better missiles made to operate in the wall. That can jump the smaller ships that are deployed with the enemy wall and can fire at full range.

A Nike B with Mk23 Missiles and Assault Shuttle for the Battalion of Marines it carries.

the biggest problem is the lack of marines new ships may not be wholly new designs but rather a continued development of the current ships.

Like the Spitfire the British didn't stop at the Mk3, the Mk21 added new better wings that didn't have Aileron problems. Fuel injected engines worked in negative gees.

If they had stopped at the Mk3 and said this is good enough the 190's would have overwhelmed them let alone 262's.

HB of CJ wrote:Probably because the Author can and might. Yep ... right now what the GA, (Grand Alliance) needs is numbers. But the numbers must be superior enough to remain ... well superior to what the Sollies and MA do have and might be able to produce. Thus the rub. You gotta have enough ships and they must be good enough ships.

Example: WW2 in the Pacific. The USN got caught with its pants down. But once the new construction, (fleet carriers, light carriers, escort carriers, heavy cruisers, light cruisers, big destroyers, etc., etc., plus all the support and invasion ships) kicked in, we kicked butt because the Japanese could not replace their loses.

Right now the Sollie building capacity is still good to go. We do not yet know how good or how much capacity the MA has. No crystal balls. Oyster Bay hurt! If the GA can, then perhaps their best bet is to build new designs AND in the quantity required. Have it both ways. New GA slips dovetail with new design types.

HB of CJ (old coot) Cm.

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to parallel the WWII example,
a short term solution for the Honorverse is
(1) Raiding Squadron of Sag-C's with Aggy as possible flagship, CLAC and Missile Collier with either Mk 16's or Mk 23's depending on target.

The Sag-C's and Aggy have the control links and Aggy (IIRC) has Keyhole (I/II).

(2) sending ships out on Intentionally Obvious Scouting to force a dispersion of ships.

(3) Short term use of Merchant hulls for missile colliers -- this last is least ideal as Commander Badmachin of HMS Volcano noted, her ship's skin was thin and did not do well with pointy things

-- Stewart

--snipping a bit--

Lord Skimper wrote:the biggest problem is the lack of marines new ships may not be wholly new designs but rather a continued development of the current ships.

Like the Spitfire the British didn't stop at the Mk3, the Mk21 added new better wings that didn't have Aileron problems. Fuel injected engines worked in negative gees.

If they had stopped at the Mk3 and said this is good enough the 190's would have overwhelmed them let alone 262's.

The Spitfire is a great example! I sort of think of the Sag-C's as the equivalent of the USN's best attack submarines, but those are now 30ish? years old, and they keep upgrading their capabilities all the time.

Plus, we've got the RHN's "below the wall combatants" to play with in the mean time. I imagine they'll make dandy marine transports and all around bad guy thwackers as needed, given that Haven has effectively put themselves at odds with both the League and the MAlign. I imagine that a seriously upgraded Sultan or Warlord could manage to put a world of hurt on just about any non-GA ship.

Sorry if I am veering off topic here but this thread got my mind wandering over to the desperate straights the SL and THEIR ship designs are in and pondering what lengths they would or could go to solving that quality gap. As already mentioned here their building capacity isn't the problem. And also as was mentioned there is the nefarious ubiquity of the MAlign.
A question for those here, would it be in the MALign's interest to aid the SL in mounting a military operation for the sole purpose of corralling/stealing a singular fighting ship? Or perhaps to put it another way, COULD the MALign with its "nefarious ubiquity" help the SL accomplish such a thing?

npadln wrote:Sorry if I am veering off topic here but this thread got my mind wandering over to the desperate straights the SL and THEIR ship designs are in and pondering what lengths they would or could go to solving that quality gap. As already mentioned here their building capacity isn't the problem. And also as was mentioned there is the nefarious ubiquity of the MAlign.
A question for those here, would it be in the MALign's interest to aid the SL in mounting a military operation for the sole purpose of corralling/stealing a singular fighting ship? Or perhaps to put it another way, COULD the MALign with its "nefarious ubiquity" help the SL accomplish such a thing?

They're using the GA as the wolves to take down the bison (the SL), so better ships would be changing the bison to a sabre tooth. Giving the sabre tooth tiger longer claws before you try to kill the darn thing strikes me as bad tactics. So I don't see them doing much more than the cataphract(s) [likely a 2nd line MAlign weapon, yes/no?]

I guess the question(s) for SLN ship improvement have to do with the 'ticking time bomb' of the GA and split off systems reaching economic parity with the League AND whatever nefarious nastiness is still waiting in the wings.