So you want to fly? What, When, Where, Why, How

Zakharra wrote:(yes this includes no planes)

Weird Harold wrote:Actually, no it does NOT include "no planes" since there are other ways of powering airplanes than ICEs.

Zakharra wrote:Not really. I respectfully disagree. Steam engines are too big and heavy and stirlings are -not- a viable option until they are no longer needed (there's no way a stirling could provide the power a fighter plane or even a bomber needs. IC props and jets are more effective and efficient. I looked up stirling airplane engines and it's at the concept stage atm now. It worked on a small model but not in large scale production planes capable of transporting people or cargo). Unless you got some super efficient very long lasting battery, electric engine planes are out too.

Weird Harold wrote:Another site posted a video about an antique amphibious airplane and that led to me wasting most of the night chasing videos of float-planes, Amphibians, flying boats, and aerial firefighters (retardant bombers.)

The in turn led me to the thought. "If Safehold did develop flight/f;lying machines, where would they locate runways/aerodromes/airports? Wouldn't Charis' Naval Traditions lead them to develop flying boats and seaplanes first?

Previous discussions from the topic, [url=forums.davidweber.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6615]Artificial Islands[/url]

Zakharra wrote:(yes this includes no planes)

Weird Harold wrote:Actually, no it does NOT include "no planes" since there are other ways of powering airplanes than ICEs.

Zakharra wrote:Not really. I respectfully disagree. Steam engines are too big and heavy and stirlings are -not- a viable option until they are no longer needed (there's no way a stirling could provide the power a fighter plane or even a bomber needs. IC props and jets are more effective and efficient. I looked up stirling airplane engines and it's at the concept stage atm now. It worked on a small model but not in large scale production planes capable of transporting people or cargo). Unless you got some super efficient very long lasting battery, electric engine planes are out too.

Steam Engines are NOT too big and heavy, Boilers and coal bunkers are too big and heavy. There are other ways of generating steam. A Steam powered airplane has been built and flown successfully and reliably: Newsreel from April 1933

Electric motors can be driven by fuel-cells or even solar-cells: numerous videos of solar aircraft

Neither of those technologies can compete with ICEs and solar aircraft would definitely have to wait for the Proscriptions to be overturned. They are however, alternative technologies that might be (might have been) developed instead of ICEs.

So, with that out of the way, how will aviation develop on Safehold?

What kind of flying machine will come first?

How much guidance will Merlin/OWL have to provide?

How long will it take to duplicate Merlin's skimmers and assault shuttles?

AirTech wrote:The weight of the boiler is not a problem for a steam powered aircraft - the weight of the water in the boiler is the problem. It is possible to use a flash boiler to minimize the weight and a surface condenser to permit reuse. Like gas turbines these work better in cold air.

AirTech wrote:Of course OWL & Merlin could just wait til the OBS is retired and start punching out heavy lift shuttles...

Weird Harold wrote:Mostly though, I would expect Merlin to set someone thinking about lighter-than-air flight (hot air, hydrogen, helium, etc) and then maybe sail-plane type gliders for reconnaissance.

Weird Harold wrote:

AirTech wrote:The weight of the boiler is not a problem for a steam powered aircraft - the weight of the water in the boiler is the problem. It is possible to use a flash boiler to minimize the weight and a surface condenser to permit reuse. Like gas turbines these work better in cold air.

A flash boiler and a condenser to recirculate the water is the approach the Besslers used in the steam plane newsreel linked above.

My wondering is more about what kind of aircraft is Charis going to start out with and how they're going to progress than how they're going to power them; as far as I'm concerned, anything is possible for the power-plant.

AirTech wrote:Of course OWL & Merlin could just wait til the OBS is retired and start punching out heavy lift shuttles...

Merlin wants to stimulate innovation and a mindset of experimentation and invention; punching out Federation Tech shuttles from a cold start kind of goes against Merlin's goals.

I can see Merlin dropping hints about Stirling Engines or flash boilers or some other obscure technology rather than pointing people at ICEs. Maybe a hint or two about Jets Rockets and gas-turbines for flight engines (probably gas turbines that run on oil tree or fire-vine lamp oil as the best option for a flight engine.)

Mostly though, I would expect Merlin to set someone thinking about lighter-than-air flight (hot air, hydrogen, helium, etc) and then maybe sail-plane type gliders for reconnaissance.

I wonder how a Sail-plane flying boat launched from a hot-air balloon (filled by tapping a KHVII's stacks for hot air) would work as a first heavier than air effort?

JeffEngel wrote:I don't recall though - are their Proscriptions against flight, or even just a cultural sense that that's archangel business and not for us? If so - and absent some compelling military need that you can expect the enemy to share to help you overcome such scruples all around - then flight may just wait til after Safehold starts to get the whole truth.

Zakharra wrote: quote="Weird Harold" quote="AirTech"The weight of the boiler is not a problem for a steam powered aircraft - the weight of the water in the boiler is the problem. It is possible to use a flash boiler to minimize the weight and a surface condenser to permit reuse. Like gas turbines these work better in cold air.
/quote

A flash boiler and a condenser to recirculate the water is the approach the Besslers used in the steam plane newsreel linked above.

My wondering is more about what kind of aircraft is Charis going to start out with and how they're going to progress than how they're going to power them; as far as I'm concerned, anything is possible for the power-plant.

quote="AirTech" Of course OWL & Merlin could just wait til the OBS is retired and start punching out heavy lift shuttles... /quote

Merlin wants to stimulate innovation and a mindset of experimentation and invention; punching out Federation Tech shuttles from a cold start kind of goes against Merlin's goals.

I can see Merlin dropping hints about Stirling Engines or flash boilers or some other obscure technology rather than pointing people at ICEs. Maybe a hint or two about Jets Rockets and gas-turbines for flight engines (probably gas turbines that run on oil tree or fire-vine lamp oil as the best option for a flight engine.)

Mostly though, I would expect Merlin to set someone thinking about lighter-than-air flight (hot air, hydrogen, helium, etc) and then maybe sail-plane type gliders for reconnaissance.

I wonder how a Sail-plane flying boat launched from a hot-air balloon (filled by tapping a KHVII's stacks for hot air) would work as a first heavier than air effort? /quote


I somewhat disagree with you here Weird Harold. You want Merlin to ignore IC engines to concentrate on engine types you feel are safer environmentally. But that doesn;t mean Merlin will do that. Realistically there is no way Merlin can keep Safehold from developing the IC engine once the Proscriptions and OBS are taken down because Merlin isn't in sole control of the database OWL has anymore. There are others using and studying it and they can see the history of Earth and its technological development. They can see the advantage IC engines give (if the Safeholders were as anti-pollution as you're implying they are/will be, they wouldn't be using steam engines and all of the known pollution it brings too, but they are) as well as any problems, but which is likely to be used? There will be oil fired steam ships and I believe there will be diesel and gas powered IC engines sooner than later. There's kind of every indication that there will be IC engines, albeit with OWL's database, they can be as clean burning as possible until more advanced engines can replace them.

I do agree that they will develop some sort of lighter than air craft (hydrogen rather than helium?). Charis might not have any sources of helium. It might be the Temple lands hold the only sources, or Armageddon Reef, both which are off limits to the Charis Empire. So hydrogen is the most likely lifting agent used. But it has some rather severe limitations as a steam engine is risking a fire, plus the weight of a steam engine (water, boilers, cooling system), but that might be negated somewhat by sticking the engines outside of the dirigible frame on pods. However that makes it harder to work on them if there is a problem. Six of one and half a dozen of the other. There is a limit to what a airship can carry in bombs (bombing would be fairly hit and miss from something that large)and cargo. Plus they are a rather slow type of aircraft compared to other forms of aircraft that have been developed.

Zakharra wrote: ... because Merlin isn't in sole control of the database OWL has anymore. There are others using and studying it and they can see the history of Earth and its technological development. They can see the advantage IC engines give ...