Artificial islands

Zakharra wrote:

n7axw wrote:What I heard in the quote is that the current industry that is about to become more efficient is drilling for water. The new industry with the interesting possibilities is drilling for oil.

With that interpretation, the extensive oil fields would be the raising of plants to be harvested for oil.

Not sure about this, but it does make sense. If they actually have extensive oil fields full of wells, why would they be messing with the plants at all?

Don

There's several reasons for that. The plant/animal oils (firevine, the oil tree, the kraken and doomwhales) are, importantly to Langhorne and his goons, naturally produced and replaceable. They are also limited in what humans can grow/harvest, and unlike petrochemical oil we use to make gas/diesel and plastics and such, is useable mostly just as fuel for lamps and such. Widespread use of oil in the ground could lead to the eventual development and use of steam and IC engines, the growth of modern technology, which Langhorne was very much against ever allowing to develop on Safehold. So the drilling and use and refining of that oil would have been discouraged. A lot.

That's certainly true. My point is that there are no extensive oil fields full of oil wells at this point in the story.

Don

n7axw wrote:

n7axw wrote:What I heard in the quote is that the current industry that is about to become more efficient is drilling for water. The new industry with the interesting possibilities is drilling for oil.

With that interpretation, the extensive oil fields would be the raising of plants to be harvested for oil.

Not sure about this, but it does make sense. If they actually have extensive oil fields full of wells, why would they be messing with the plants at all?

Don

Zakharra wrote: There's several reasons for that. The plant/animal oils (firevine, the oil tree, the kraken and doomwhales) are, importantly to Langhorne and his goons, naturally produced and replaceable. They are also limited in what humans can grow/harvest, and unlike petrochemical oil we use to make gas/diesel and plastics and such, is useable mostly just as fuel for lamps and such. Widespread use of oil in the ground could lead to the eventual development and use of steam and IC engines, the growth of modern technology, which Langhorne was very much against ever allowing to develop on Safehold. So the drilling and use and refining of that oil would have been discouraged. A lot.

That's certainly true. My point is that there are no extensive oil fields full of oil wells at this point in the story.

Don

The state of the oil industry in Safehold is currently about what it was in the US in 1858 - just before the first well is drilled at Titusville, PA. Still dependent on harvesting oil from the ocean.

n7axw wrote:

Zakharra wrote: There's several reasons for that. The plant/animal oils (firevine, the oil tree, the kraken and doomwhales) are, importantly to Langhorne and his goons, naturally produced and replaceable. They are also limited in what humans can grow/harvest, and unlike petrochemical oil we use to make gas/diesel and plastics and such, is useable mostly just as fuel for lamps and such. Widespread use of oil in the ground could lead to the eventual development and use of steam and IC engines, the growth of modern technology, which Langhorne was very much against ever allowing to develop on Safehold. So the drilling and use and refining of that oil would have been discouraged. A lot.

That's certainly true. My point is that there are no extensive oil fields full of oil wells at this point in the story.

Don

I think you're purposefully misinterpreting what MWW wrote. There are extensive oil fields, petroleum oil fields, not plants they are using but full blown petroleum, that Merlin was noting. But, as Fallsfromtrees has noted, they haven't been developed yet. The Safehold oil industry is still like the US was in 1858, still mostly dependent on whale oil.

The extensive fleet used to gather the oil could instead be used by the merchants or military.

Zakharra wrote:
I think you're purposefully misinterpreting what MWW wrote. There are extensive oil fields, petroleum oil fields, not plants they are using but full blown petroleum, that Merlin was noting. But, as Fallsfromtrees has noted, they haven't been developed yet. The Safehold oil industry is still like the US was in 1858, still mostly dependent on whale oil.

I am not quite grasping your point. I am not saying that there isn't any petroleum out there. But at least in my own mind, an oil field is a place where oil is actually being produced, whether it is actually petroleum being extracted from the ground or by oil producing plants being harvested. My useage is fairly common parlance. At least for oil field workers which is something I took a shot at, to say that a new oil field is being opened up is to say that oil has been discovered and wells are being drilled to extract it.

Since there is no textev for petroleum being drilled at this point, its not an unreaonable conclusion to assume that the extensive oilfields referred to are oil plants raised and cultivated for harvest.

I agree with you we are at the Titusville, PA stage. Petroleum oil fields are on the near term horizon. But they are not here yet. So unless David is operating with a different definition of oil field than I am, which obviously is a possibility, I think my prior post on this subject stands.

This is not to disagree with your primary point about them being dependent on whale oil. Both the whale oil and the plants are out there. Both are being used.

Don

The thing is currently their oil hunting practises are sustainable, the sea life they are dea with are numerous and dangerous. Say modern safehold ships were given to the ouil fleets, it could be their increased capability would be still sustainable in the ecosystems of the seas.

There must be places where the creatures they hunt gather, it would make sense to create some facilities close by, so build up assets on island or a sea platform for their woorks.

n7axw wrote:

Zakharra wrote:
I think you're purposefully misinterpreting what MWW wrote. There are extensive oil fields, petroleum oil fields, not plants they are using but full blown petroleum, that Merlin was noting. But, as Fallsfromtrees has noted, they haven't been developed yet. The Safehold oil industry is still like the US was in 1858, still mostly dependent on whale oil.

I am not quite grasping your point. I am not saying that there isn't any petroleum out there. But at least in my own mind, an oil field is a place where oil is actually being produced, whether it is actually petroleum being extracted from the ground or by oil producing plants being harvested. My useage is fairly common parlance. At least for oil field workers which is something I took a shot at, to say that a new oil field is being opened up is to say that oil has been discovered and wells are being drilled to extract it.

Since there is no textev for petroleum being drilled at this point, its not an unreaonable conclusion to assume that the extensive oilfields referred to are oil plants raised and cultivated for harvest.

I agree with you we are at the Titusville, PA stage. Petroleum oil fields are on the near term horizon. But they are not here yet. So unless David is operating with a different definition of oil field than I am, which obviously is a possibility, I think my prior post on this subject stands.

This is not to disagree with your primary point about them being dependent on whale oil. Both the whale oil and the plants are out there. Both are being used.

Don

Hhm.. I've read that section several times and the preceding chapter; the impression I got is that Merlin wasn't talking about plant/animal oils like Safehold is using atm, but the petroleum oil fields, for me areas that oil is located and incidentally it has to be extracted from, rather than where it is refined, aren't being used as we would. He's looking to the future when such oil will be needed. Hence mention of the vast untapped, as of yet, oil fields off Emerald and southern Charis. Merlin clearly knows the oil fields exist, it's unclear if anyone else knows (but its likely he has at least informed some of the inner circle about their existence). The animal and plant oils can only go so far and petroleum oil is much denser energy wise, and more useful in a much wider range of products than those natural and renewable oils are.

Edit: I reread what the post you wrote that I responded to and realized I'd misread your post wrong. I missed this part: extensive oil fields full of oil wells at this point in the story. So I do agree with you there. But there will be some within the next 5 years and more as time goes on. Within 20 years, there will likely be oil derricks and rigs all over the place, unless Charis makes them a nationally controlled industry (unlikely) and controls where they can be put.

SYED wrote:The thing is currently their oil hunting practises are sustainable, the sea life they are dea with are numerous and dangerous. Say modern safehold ships were given to the ouil fleets, it could be their increased capability would be still sustainable in the ecosystems of the seas.

There must be places where the creatures they hunt gather, it would make sense to create some facilities close by, so build up assets on island or a sea platform for their woorks.

Actually I think he mentions it is unsustainable. It will just take somewhat longer (decades) at the current rate of harvesting for the demand for sea dragon oil to significantly start reducing the number of sea dragons because those creatures breed and grow much faster than whales. Hence his desire to move to petroleum oil.

n7axw wrote:I am not quite grasping your point. I am not saying that there isn't any petroleum out there. But at least in my own mind, an oil field is a place where oil is actually being produced, whether it is actually petroleum being extracted from the ground or by oil producing plants being harvested. My useage is fairly common parlance. At least for oil field workers which is something I took a shot at, to say that a new oil field is being opened up is to say that oil has been discovered and wells are being drilled to extract it.

That's where the confusion lies. The common definition of oil field is a place where oil deposits exist, whether or not they are being drilled. You are confusing people by meaning something different.

SWM wrote:

n7axw wrote:I am not quite grasping your point. I am not saying that there isn't any petroleum out there. But at least in my own mind, an oil field is a place where oil is actually being produced, whether it is actually petroleum being extracted from the ground or by oil producing plants being harvested. My useage is fairly common parlance. At least for oil field workers which is something I took a shot at, to say that a new oil field is being opened up is to say that oil has been discovered and wells are being drilled to extract it.

That's where the confusion lies. The common definition of oil field is a place where oil deposits exist, whether or not they are being drilled. You are confusing people by meaning something different.

I agree with SWM, Don. I think you are imputing an overly technical definition of 'oil field' to DW in using it only for oil bearing areas which are already being exploited. I certainly read it as 'Given the oil bearing areas, which Merlin, at least knows about, in the easily accessible areas specified, and the advanced state of water drilling and pumping technology on Safehold, there is a real probability of a petroleum industry taking off in the near future. If the oil fields mentioned are fields of oil bearing plants the reference to the water technology is a glaring non sequitor, but it makes lots of sense if the reference is to petroleum containing areas. Then the paragraph says that the IOC has both the opportunity and (almost) the means to drill for petroleum oil so the industry is unlikely to be long delayed.

One thing about underwater oil field if there isn't first grade oil or other which is easy to refine, there is no economical base to drill there. Cheaper and wiser option would be to pump all oil on land before going after underwater ones.