Considerations about naval designs

phillies wrote:Cleaning them out afterwards, well, that was a horse of a different color.

I'm sure that was a horse of a dark brown color

Darman wrote:

phillies wrote:Cleaning them out afterwards, well, that was a horse of a different color.

I'm sure that was a horse of a dark brown color

And for those who were assigned to do the clean up it was a horse of a different choler

I am not so sure the Imperial Purse ought to be tight fisted in the near term. Charis has to provide the currency for the new Empire as well as Siddermark. The new mines won't produce one gold piece for years yet. Charis needs to issue quite a few of gold production promissory notes. The notes will trade but for the most part they will act to shore the newly created wealth. That will allow the existing gold coins to function primarily as a wealth transfer mechanism by circulating faster.

Think about it. Old Charis was all of 2% of Safehold's population pre jihad. The Empire is about 7%. Siddermark was about 13% and is now about 9%-10%. Integrating that additional population means the currency base has to support an economy 8 times larger than Old Charis pre-jihad. Add the productivity increases (20 times pre-jihad) and the Allied economy is headed towards 160 times the size of the Charisian economy Erik Dynnys presided over. Siddermark has lost much of its currency and so the currency available on the out islands will have to represent the bulk of the allied money supply.

All that suggests to me that Cayleb and Sharley will be issuing large sums of those promissory notes as soon as they can. They issue those notes and encourage folks to save them and spend/circulate the existing gold. If they don't, the allied economy will choke for the need of money. So canals, railroads and more types of new ships and more robust designs for the navy are things that those much needed promissory notes would buy.

n7axw wrote:
I agree that Charis needs the designs, but I'm not convinced that the expense for all of that should come out of the imperial purse. Let the imperial purse pay for one design to be used as a troop transort but convertable to a freighter after the war. Then let the private sector pay for R&D on whatever other designs might be needed.

Don

PeterZ wrote:I am not so sure the Imperial Purse ought to be tight fisted in the near term. Charis has to provide the currency for the new Empire as well as Siddermark. The new mines won't produce one gold piece for years yet. Charis needs to issue quite a few of gold production promissory notes. The notes will trade but for the most part they will act to shore the newly created wealth. That will allow the existing gold coins to function primarily as a wealth transfer mechanism by circulating faster.

Think about it. Old Charis was all of 2% of Safehold's population pre jihad. The Empire is about 7%. Siddermark was about 13% and is now about 9%-10%. Integrating that additional population means the currency base has to support an economy 8 times larger than Old Charis pre-jihad. Add the productivity increases (20 times pre-jihad) and the Allied economy is headed towards 160 times the size of the Charisian economy Erik Dynnys presided over. Siddermark has lost much of its currency and so the currency available on the out islands will have to represent the bulk of the allied money supply.

All that suggests to me that Cayleb and Sharley will be issuing large sums of those promissory notes as soon as they can. They issue those notes and encourage folks to save them and spend/circulate the existing gold. If they don't, the allied economy will choke for the need of money. So canals, railroads and more types of new ships and more robust designs for the navy are things that those much needed promissory notes would buy.

n7axw wrote:
I agree that Charis needs the designs, but I'm not convinced that the expense for all of that should come out of the imperial purse. Let the imperial purse pay for one design to be used as a troop transort but convertable to a freighter after the war. Then let the private sector pay for R&D on whatever other designs might be needed.

Don

You are raising valid points, Peter. My only objection is that the EOC is already stretched to the limit for resources and in financing the cost of the war. That silver is no magic cure for dealing with that. Issue too much silver or too many promissory notes and you get inflation.

Also given the skilled labor shortage and the reality that building slips are being used to produce warships, I remain unconvinced that coming up with lots of designs producing a small number of ships each would be a wise allocation of all that. Far better to come up with a "liberty ship" design that would be large enough to be used both for military purposes and later converted to civilian use. Then set up the assembly line and start cranking them out rather than changing the design and forcing a constant redo of the building process.

Don

n7axw wrote:You are raising valid points, Peter. My only objection is that the EOC is already stretched to the limit for resources and in financing the cost of the war. That silver is no magic cure for dealing with that. Issue too much silver or too many promissory notes and you get inflation.

Also given the skilled labor shortage and the reality that building slips are being used to produce warships, I remain unconvinced that coming up with lots of designs producing a small number of ships each would be a wise allocation of all that. Far better to come up with a "liberty ship" design that would be large enough to be used both for military purposes and later converted to civilian use. Then set up the assembly line and start cranking them out rather than changing the design and forcing a constant redo of the building process.

Don

I actually agree with you on the Liberty Ship for merchant shipping. The Empire sponsors a simple but well made design and offers financing, preferably a lease to own. The idea is to make a basic steamer design available for anyone wanting to upgrade their merchant sailing ship.

Troop transports are another matter. Build these babies for Imperial use first. Lease them out after hostilities with a provision that they can be recalled into Imperial service at a set fee with notice. I just think that troop transports should be optimized at the design level to carry troops. Letting the more experienced building crews build these for the navy might be best.

I do agree that setting up an assembly line for ships and training building crews would be best with one simple design. Let the crews get experienced with that design first before trying different and more complicated designs.

Regarding inflation, Don, that risk is very low to non-existent. Given the productivity improvements and the need to rebuild Siddermark, deflation is the much greater risk. I doubt that the existing gold is enough to fuel the economic growth the allies will be seeing in the near term. Even with the promissory notes storing wealth, the allied economy will need more currency to enable transactions until more gold is mined. Will Siddermark and Charis need to issue promissory note backed bank notes? Maybe. Will people in Siddermark work with futures contracts and individual promissory notes to secure transactions? Likely. Will there be many non-standard means to facilitate transactions in Siddermark? Certainly. Will there be experimentation in finance and payment mechanisms? Of course there will be.

PeterZ wrote:

n7axw wrote:You are raising valid points, Peter. My only objection is that the EOC is already stretched to the limit for resources and in financing the cost of the war. That silver is no magic cure for dealing with that. Issue too much silver or too many promissory notes and you get inflation.

Also given the skilled labor shortage and the reality that building slips are being used to produce warships, I remain unconvinced that coming up with lots of designs producing a small number of ships each would be a wise allocation of all that. Far better to come up with a "liberty ship" design that would be large enough to be used both for military purposes and later converted to civilian use. Then set up the assembly line and start cranking them out rather than changing the design and forcing a constant redo of the building process.

Don

I actually agree with you on the Liberty Ship for merchant shipping. The Empire sponsors a simple but well made design and offers financing, preferably a lease to own. The idea is to make a basic steamer design available for anyone wanting to upgrade their merchant sailing ship.

Troop transports are another matter. Build these babies for Imperial use first. Lease them out after hostilities with a provision that they can be recalled into Imperial service at a set fee with notice. I just think that troop transports should be optimized at the design level to carry troops. Letting the more experienced building crews build these for the navy might be best.

I do agree that setting up an assembly line for ships and training building crews would be best with one simple design. Let the crews get experienced with that design first before trying different and more complicated designs.

I don't think we are arguing. With a proper design, the only difference between freight transport and troop transport would be the inside of the hull. The hull can be the same. The power plant can be the same. Optimize design in favor of troop transport where necessary, but otherwise the same.

Can you imagine those Desnairian privateers trying to stop a freighter with an all steel hull steaming at about 12 knots into the wind? Talk about an exercise in futility...

Don

n7axw wrote:I don't think we are arguing. With a proper design, the only difference between freight transport and troop transport would be the inside of the hull. The hull can be the same. The power plant can be the same. Optimize design in favor of troop transport where necessary, but otherwise the same.

Can you imagine those Desnairian privateers trying to stop a freighter with an all steel hull steaming at about 12 knots into the wind? Talk about an exercise in futility...

Don

The core of your last paragraph is the reason why I have argued for the heavier ships and the aggressively expansive economy.

RFC has mentioned that a core goal of the EoC is to provide an example of technology so superior to the mainland that that tech must be copied by competing nations. I would argue that creating an economic system that is also so superior that such few Charisians can support such a massive effort to beat back the might of the CoGA and 80% of Safehold's population in a fight to the death. To meet that stated goal Charis needs to stoke the economic growth all these innovations have made possible.

So, the core of the ICN almost has to be ships that are the epitome of naval power. Being able to support a majority or at least a strong plurality of ships like the KHVII or a newer version of that design underscores both goals quite well. The ICA almost has to have capabilities that are generations superior to anything the mainland can boast. Steam tanks, machine guns and steam trucks to move troops around quickly are also needed to emphasize these Charisian capabilities. Funding for these projects will come from the Silverlode mines not from tax revenues alone. Because that is so, Charis' deficit spending isn't as damaging as deficit spending in a fiat currency regime. Paying back the Charisian debt won't come from higher taxes that slow the economy, but the future production of the mines.

Freely spending to support a crushingly superior military and infrastructure improvements that make commerce so much easier is the best way to prove to the rest of Safehold's nations that not adopting social, technological and economic innovation is suicide.

PeterZ wrote:

n7axw wrote:

I actually agree with you on the Liberty Ship for merchant shipping. The Empire sponsors a simple but well made design and offers financing, preferably a lease to own. The idea is to make a basic steamer design available for anyone wanting to upgrade their merchant sailing ship.

Troop transports are another matter. Build these babies for Imperial use first. Lease them out after hostilities with a provision that they can be recalled into Imperial service at a set fee with notice. I just think that troop transports should be optimized at the design level to carry troops. Letting the more experienced building crews build these for the navy might be best.

I do agree that setting up an assembly line for ships and training building crews would be best with one simple design. Let the crews get experienced with that design first before trying different and more complicated designs.

I don't think we are arguing. With a proper design, the only difference between freight transport and troop transport would be the inside of the hull. The hull can be the same. The power plant can be the same. Optimize design in favor of troop transport where necessary, but otherwise the same.

Can you imagine those Desnairian privateers trying to stop a freighter with an all steel hull steaming at about 12 knots into the wind? Talk about an exercise in futility...

Don

While troop transports and cargo carriers are needed, they are not the only designs needed. At least four designs will be with some being post war. Design #1 should be for bulk solid cargoes as in coal, metal ores, bulk grain etc. Number 2 should be for containerized cargo be it CONEX type boxes, crates or bags. Design #3 should be for bulk liquids generally but not limited to oils. Number 4 would be a generalized freighter/transport able to carry cargo and/or passengers. Start with the barebones hull then specialize as needed.

Yep. Set the basic design up. Then vary the geography inside the hull according to need after you have provided for hull, engine and bunkerage.

One comment, though. If the story arc proceeds as per my own prediction, the G-4 will be gone and the war over before any of our creativity can be implemented. At present the allies are still recruiting people faster than they can supply weapons for them to use. That obviously has priority over naval expansion.

Don

Imaginary quote from Edwayrd Howsmyn: "how much else do I need to get done before breakfast?"

Don

doug941 wrote:
While troop transports and cargo carriers are needed, they are not the only designs needed. At least four designs will be with some being post war. Design #1 should be for bulk solid cargoes as in coal, metal ores, bulk grain etc. Number 2 should be for containerized cargo be it CONEX type boxes, crates or bags. Design #3 should be for bulk liquids generally but not limited to oils. Number 4 would be a generalized freighter/transport able to carry cargo and/or passengers. Start with the barebones hull then specialize as needed.

Bulker hulls are pretty much standard with minor variations in detail. A number of supertankers have been converted from oil to ore carriers as a result of rules requiring double hulls for oil tankers. The primary difference is the hull hatches for dry bulk vs piping for oil. The basic hull remains the same. Ditto for container ships - add brackets for containers and your dry bulker is a container ship.

The basics for a modern cargo ship are putting the power plant and crew accommodation in the standardized rear module, have an x-length rectangular box in front and stick a bow on the end. Architecture is simple and standardized, you only need to design for bending moments beyond that depending on the cargo density and hull length. Special cases like a heavy lift ship / floating dry dock are possible with a simple modification to the basic design (i.e. leave out the side walls to the hull). Landing Ships generally can follow the same pattern with the addition of a bow ramp or a ramp and doors for better sea keeping.

You can build a passenger liner on the same pattern (but it is usual to have the bridge forward for visibility.

Roll On - Roll Off (both road and rail) ferries and Landing Ship Dock's are special cases because a clear path is needed at the stern, so either the engines need to be under the vehicle deck (and thus flattened) or squeezed into the hull walls.(Possible but a non-standard design)

Building any of these in wood is however difficult because the volume of wood needed would reduce the cargo capacity unacceptably and the size of the forests equally rapidly. The lengths of clear span timber needed for large ships would also be uncommon.