Considerations about naval designs

Darman wrote:

fallsfromtrees wrote:Probably need to see if it is needed. Right now there really isn't a major need for major (ala D-Day) landings on the main continents, except possibly in Dohlar, and that is probably going to be solved by the King Haaralds. Since it will take 6 months to a year (or more, given all of the other demands on Howsmyn's foundries) to design and build this beast, the war may well be over.

I would argue that simply looking to see if a large amphibious D-Day-style assault was going to be needed in the near future as the sole measure of the value of an amphibious assault ship is the wrong way to go about deciding if said vessel is valuable enough to invest time and resour4ces in designing and constructing it. The true benchmark for its value would be the predicted frequency of amphibious landings, large or small. If Charisian planners only foresee the need for one super-large amphibious assault, then why bother designing a vessel that would only be used once? However, if Charisian strategic planners are hoping to launch many small amphibious assaults/raids all along enemy-controlled coastlines.... then designing a vessel that carries landing craft, troops, and whatever gun-type is deemed most desirable for landing support would seem to me to be a no-brainer.

I think that there will be a lot of small amphibious assaults during this war, but also designing this kind of ship will give them a lot of experience with designing C&C ships.

Draken wrote:What about some kind of support ship for army and Marines? I'm thinking about something similar to USS America. C&C function, large amount of small crafts and since we don't need big deck for helicopters or planes, decent gun support for landing?

fallsfromtrees wrote:Probably need to see if it is needed. Right now there really isn't a major need for major (ala D-Day) landings on the main continents, except possibly in Dohlar, and that is probably going to be solved by the King Haaralds. Since it will take 6 months to a year (or more, given all of the other demands on Howsmyn's foundries) to design and build this beast, the war may well be over.

Darman wrote:I would argue that simply looking to see if a large amphibious D-Day-style assault was going to be needed in the near future as the sole measure of the value of an amphibious assault ship is the wrong way to go about deciding if said vessel is valuable enough to invest time and resour4ces in designing and constructing it. The true benchmark for its value would be the predicted frequency of amphibious landings, large or small. If Charisian planners only foresee the need for one super-large amphibious assault, then why bother designing a vessel that would only be used once? However, if Charisian strategic planners are hoping to launch many small amphibious assaults/raids all along enemy-controlled coastlines.... then designing a vessel that carries landing craft, troops, and whatever gun-type is deemed most desirable for landing support would seem to me to be a no-brainer.

That seems reasonable to me. I just don't see the need in the immediate future for either scenario.

My personal feelings are that armed transports for troops, with extra small boats for emergencies/landings, would be very useful no matter what.

Darman wrote:My personal feelings are that armed transports for troops, with extra small boats for emergencies/landings, would be very useful no matter what.

Perhaps, but that have already done this twice - during the invasion of Corisande. It's not clear how many more times it is going to be required, and Charis is too short of industrial sinew to waste any of it on "well this might come in handy, some day"

Charis is well on their way to tripling their Delthak works output. Their shortage in output is decreasing as those additional industrial centers come on line.

As for steam troop ships being a waste, tell that to the troops that died in the transport Bahrnes didn't save. Those troops had a better chance in a steam ship than a sailing galleon. Granted the losses to storms are small, but small doesn't mean insignificant.

Bottom line is that Charis will need more people than they have until the Proscriptions are lifted. Fast and armed troop transports make better and more efficient use of military personnel than slow sailing ships. That in itself makes the steam transports worthwhile.

fallsfromtrees wrote:

Darman wrote:My personal feelings are that armed transports for troops, with extra small boats for emergencies/landings, would be very useful no matter what.

Perhaps, but that have already done this twice - during the invasion of Corisande. It's not clear how many more times it is going to be required, and Charis is too short of industrial sinew to waste any of it on "well this might come in handy, some day"

If Charis is going to deploy attack transports, it would be best to use the WW2 US Navy pattern. The landing craft were special designs but the actual transports were modified merchant hulls. This approach can get hulls in the water faster and after the shooting stops any extra hulls can be sold for commercial use.

PeterZ wrote:Charis is well on their way to tripling their Delthak works output. Their shortage in output is decreasing as those additional industrial centers come on line.

As for steam troop ships being a waste, tell that to the troops that died in the transport Bahrnes didn't save. Those troops had a better chance in a steam ship than a sailing galleon. Granted the losses to storms are small, but small doesn't mean insignificant.

Bottom line is that Charis will need more people than they have until the Proscriptions are lifted. Fast and armed troop transports make better and more efficient use of military personnel than slow sailing ships. That in itself makes the steam transports worthwhile.

Darman wrote:My personal feelings are that armed transports for troops, with extra small boats for emergencies/landings, would be very useful no matter what.

fallsfromtrees wrote:Perhaps, but that have already done this twice - during the invasion of Corisande. It's not clear how many more times it is going to be required, and Charis is too short of industrial sinew to waste any of it on "well this might come in handy, some day"

Good point, but how much troop transport by sea is still to be done? And how much at one time? Doug941's point about using merchant hulls is a good one - it means a jump start on the steam merchant marine that Charis will need after the war.

fallsfromtrees wrote:Good point, but how much troop transport by sea is still to be done? And how much at one time? Doug941's point about using merchant hulls is a good one - it means a jump start on the steam merchant marine that Charis will need after the war.

Considering that Charis is a maritime empire, meaning that all of its supplies and personnel has to travel by sea simply to get from one part of the Empire to the other? I'd say that the demand for fast troop transports would be very high, and once they were introduced it would be a case of never having enough. The important thing to note would be their versatility: they can be used to transport newly raised troops from Charis, Chisholm, Corisande, or Emerald to Siddarmark, can also be used to return injured soldiers, soldiers on leave, and messages to the Charisian capital cities, would allow for a regular passenger schedule to be kept between the capital cities (steam vessels being far more capable of actually keeping to a schedule than sail vessels), and once the steam transports arrive in combat areas I highly doubt the commanders would want to let them leave, since they can find a use for them somewhere.

I would want these vessels to be more like the Crescent City-type attack transports than LSTs.

Darman wrote:

fallsfromtrees wrote:Good point, but how much troop transport by sea is still to be done? And how much at one time? Doug941's point about using merchant hulls is a good one - it means a jump start on the steam merchant marine that Charis will need after the war.

Considering that Charis is a maritime empire, meaning that all of its supplies and personnel has to travel by sea simply to get from one part of the Empire to the other? I'd say that the demand for fast troop transports would be very high, and once they were introduced it would be a case of never having enough. The important thing to note would be their versatility: they can be used to transport newly raised troops from Charis, Chisholm, Corisande, or Emerald to Siddarmark, can also be used to return injured soldiers, soldiers on leave, and messages to the Charisian capital cities, would allow for a regular passenger schedule to be kept between the capital cities (steam vessels being far more capable of actually keeping to a schedule than sail vessels), and once the steam transports arrive in combat areas I highly doubt the commanders would want to let them leave, since they can find a use for them somewhere.

I would want these vessels to be more like the Crescent City-type attack transports than LSTs.

What about products in both designs? LST is better in some areas and Crescent City in others.

fallsfromtrees wrote:Good point, but how much troop transport by sea is still to be done? And how much at one time? Doug941's point about using merchant hulls is a good one - it means a jump start on the steam merchant marine that Charis will need after the war.

Darman wrote:
Considering that Charis is a maritime empire, meaning that all of its supplies and personnel has to travel by sea simply to get from one part of the Empire to the other? I'd say that the demand for fast troop transports would be very high, and once they were introduced it would be a case of never having enough. The important thing to note would be their versatility: they can be used to transport newly raised troops from Charis, Chisholm, Corisande, or Emerald to Siddarmark, can also be used to return injured soldiers, soldiers on leave, and messages to the Charisian capital cities, would allow for a regular passenger schedule to be kept between the capital cities (steam vessels being far more capable of actually keeping to a schedule than sail vessels), and once the steam transports arrive in combat areas I highly doubt the commanders would want to let them leave, since they can find a use for them somewhere.

I would want these vessels to be more like the Crescent City-type attack transports than LSTs.

Draken wrote:What about products in both designs? LST is better in some areas and Crescent City in others.

I suppose I was thinking more about the LSTs than actual troop transports. Actually moving troops around within the Empire will require shipping wore like steam ocean liners, which in fact should be putting in a appearance at about the same time as the steam merchant ships.