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HFQ Official Snippet #15 Merry Christmas!

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Re: HFQ Official Snippet #15 Merry Christmas!
Post by JeffEngel   » Thu Dec 25, 2014 4:49 pm

JeffEngel
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Larry wrote:So when Merlin says "To allow you unfettered access to Owl’s libraries and the ability to discuss their contents with any other member of the inner circle — including Nynian — for however long you like." does this imply that Nynian is already included into the inner circle? Must have missed when that happened somehow. Or am I misunderstanding and the line "In fact, that’s the main reason we brought you and Nynian here in the first place; so that our hands wouldn’ t be forced if either of you decided you couldn’t accept what we had to tell you." implies that both of them are still both being tested.
If that's the case it may hamper the cooperation the inner circle can have with the Sisters of Kohdy when both their (the sisterhoods) number one and two coordinator are effectively incommunicado.
It just feels like it's not entirely clear at the end of that wither either one has actually accepted membership in the inner circle even though everything seems to be addressed to Sandaria. I'm unclear on Nynian's status.

I also wonder if on her part Nynian had made St. Kohdy's journal available or if she's still hanging on to that till she's made up her mind to join up completely with the inner circle. Likewise does she know about St. Zernau and has she been given access to those documents... No scratch that, if she's at OWL's cave she'll have access to all of that from OWL's records soon enough if she hasn't seen them already. So that's somewhat moot. Interesting, and I note we still don't know why she needs the fast ride to Zion. (Unless I've managed to read over something, somewhere.) Wheels within wheels for this portion.

Larry

I've not caught the answer to the fast-ride-to-Zion question either - assuming we're not both missing it (and hey, I'm not going through 15 snippets to double-check my memory! - it's not been reviewed.

I think the only thing keeping Nynian or Sandaria from Inner Circle membership by the end of this conversation is wigging out over The Truth, and that Merlin is assuming from Nynian's cues that Nynian is taking it in stride. Really paranoid sorts may suppose that Nynian is using Sandaria's apparent shock to cover her own carefully-hidden dismay, and that she'll quietly report Shan-wei's demons to the Inquisition right after getting back. I would not suppose that.
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Re: HFQ Official Snippet #15 Merry Christmas!
Post by lyonheart   » Thu Dec 25, 2014 5:11 pm

lyonheart
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Hello RunsForCelery, and to all previous posters,

Thank you so very much for the unexpected snippet!

Dealing with Sandaria so mercifully is wonderful.

Learning more about how Merlin and Nimue feel about Langhorne and the Holy Writ is also very wonderful.

Merry Christmas and best wishes for the new year to all!

L
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: HFQ Official Snippet #15 Merry Christmas!
Post by kbus888   » Thu Dec 25, 2014 5:26 pm

kbus888
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Posts: 1980
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=2014/12/25=
Agnostic's prayer

"Oh God, if there is a God
Save my soul, if I have a soul" :!:

R
.
..//* *\\
(/(..^..)\)
.._/'*'\_
.(,,,)^(,,,)

Love is a condition in which
the happiness of another
is essential to your own. - R Heinlein
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Re: HFQ Official Snippet #15 Merry Christmas!
Post by Graydon   » Thu Dec 25, 2014 7:37 pm

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Larry wrote:So when Merlin says "To allow you unfettered access to Owl’s libraries and the ability to discuss their contents with any other member of the inner circle — including Nynian — for however long you like." does this imply that Nynian is already included into the inner circle?


I don't think so. Nynian has three outcomes, same as Sandriah does; in, prisoner, or frozen. Merlin is saying that whether Nynian is in or also a prisoner, Sandriah will be permitted ongoing communication. (I think it's also likely that Nynian isn't going to pick freezing if Sandriah is a prisoner, and reasonable for Merlin to suppose that.)

Remember that Nynian is ... morally confident, call it ... enough about Merlin to ask for (in a Safeholdian frame) supernatural help. Also much more cynical in character; there isn't a whole lot about human depravity that could hope to surprise Nynian. Sandriah has stronger expectations in an ordered universe.
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Re: HFQ Official Snippet #15 Merry Christmas!
Post by Thrandir   » Thu Dec 25, 2014 8:41 pm

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Thanks RFC and I hope everyone has had a lovely Xmas.
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Re: HFQ Official Snippet #15 Merry Christmas!
Post by dobriennm   » Thu Dec 25, 2014 9:00 pm

dobriennm
Commander

Posts: 169
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runsforcelery wrote:.V.
The Seridahn River,
The South March,
Republic of Siddarmark.

“What the hell is that?”

Merry Christmas RFC!

For everyone else (since RFC already knows)

So does this relate to HFQ Teeney-Tiny Snippet #2

03/30: Tiny 2: Hahlcahm Bahrns is up to something interesting that will go BOOM!

Seridahn River is near Thesmar where Hahlcahm Bahrns went delivering Troops in LAMA. So is Halcahm going up the Seridahn River to cut off Alverez?

David
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Re: HFQ Official Snippet #15 Merry Christmas!
Post by n7axw   » Thu Dec 25, 2014 10:43 pm

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Graydon wrote:
Larry wrote:So when Merlin says "To allow you unfettered access to Owl’s libraries and the ability to discuss their contents with any other member of the inner circle — including Nynian — for however long you like." does this imply that Nynian is already included into the inner circle?


I don't think so. Nynian has three outcomes, same as Sandriah does; in, prisoner, or frozen. Merlin is saying that whether Nynian is in or also a prisoner, Sandriah will be permitted ongoing communication. (I think it's also likely that Nynian isn't going to pick freezing if Sandriah is a prisoner, and reasonable for Merlin to suppose that.)

Remember that Nynian is ... morally confident, call it ... enough about Merlin to ask for (in a Safeholdian frame) supernatural help. Also much more cynical in character; there isn't a whole lot about human depravity that could hope to surprise Nynian. Sandriah has stronger expectations in an ordered universe.


Hi Graydon,

I really liked the last paragraph of your post. I think you nailed it exactly with that. Also, I agree that Nynian isn't in the clear yet...

It's premature to give up on Sandaria. I think she is in the anger and denial stages which for those of you who might not know, those are stages of grief. It will be a while longer before she settles down and learn where she is really at.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: HFQ Official Snippet #15 Merry Christmas!
Post by ByaBGV   » Fri Dec 26, 2014 1:58 am

ByaBGV
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Thank you for the snippet and always a master of the cliff' :p

Happy holidays everyone :)
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Re: HFQ Official Snippet #15 Merry Christmas!
Post by Sargon   » Fri Dec 26, 2014 9:27 am

Sargon
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Kufat wrote:
JeffEngel wrote:Ehhh... agnosticism has it that we cannot know one way or the other.

Not necessarily. Short version:
Strong agnosticism: We can't know.
Weak agnosticism: I don't know.
Both of the above fall under weak atheism, which is the first definition you used. Of course, we could argue about the meaning of know 'til the cows come home...


I think you are both, to a certain extent, conflating knowledge and belief. Some theists and even some atheists believe that God's existence or non-existence can be proven and is thus something that can be known, but this is not true of all theists or atheists. Indeed, I am a theist (Christian, as it happens, but that's neither here nor there), but I would fit comfortably within the "strong agnostic" category you have described. While I can't claim these are universal connotations -- much less denotations -- I think the three terms refer to belief rather than knowledge. Theists believe that God exists, whether because they think the matter has been proven or because -- like I do -- they think the matter is not susceptible of proof but choose to stake out a belief in the absence of proof. Atheists believe that God does not exist. Agnostics refuse to believe one way or the other in the absence of proof they find compelling. Some of them -- probably most -- share my conviction that the matter is not susceptible of proof. In a Safeholdian context, all of this becomes more complicated, because historically everyone was a theist who knew, based on the commentaries and witness of the Adams and Eves, that the existence of God and the Archangels was proven fact. Going from that to any system that depends on belief in the absence of proof may be the greatest leap of all.
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Re: HFQ Official Snippet #15 Merry Christmas!
Post by Peter2   » Fri Dec 26, 2014 11:58 am

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(To avoid a triple nested quote, forbidden by the system) Sargon said

Kufat wrote:
JeffEngel wrote:Ehhh... agnosticism has it that we cannot know one way or the other.

Not necessarily. Short version:
Strong agnosticism: We can't know.
Weak agnosticism: I don't know.
Both of the above fall under weak atheism, which is the first definition you used. Of course, we could argue about the meaning of [i]know 'til the cows come home...


I think you are both, to a certain extent, conflating knowledge and belief. Some theists and even some atheists believe that God's existence or non-existence can be proven and is thus something that can be known, but this is not true of all theists or atheists. Indeed, I am a theist (Christian, as it happens, but that's neither here nor there), but I would fit comfortably within the "strong agnostic" category you have described. While I can't claim these are universal connotations -- much less denotations -- I think the three terms refer to belief rather than knowledge. Theists believe that God exists, whether because they think the matter has been proven or because -- like I do -- they think the matter is not susceptible of proof but choose to stake out a belief in the absence of proof. Atheists believe that God does not exist. Agnostics refuse to believe one way or the other in the absence of proof they find compelling. Some of them -- probably most -- share my conviction that the matter is not susceptible of proof. In a Safeholdian context, all of this becomes more complicated, because historically everyone was a theist who knew, based on the commentaries and witness of the Adams and Eves, that the existence of God and the Archangels was proven fact. Going from that to any system that depends on belief in the absence of proof may be the greatest leap of all.[/quote][/i]

Just to confuse things even further, there is Clarke's Third Law, that "Any sufficiently advanced science is indistinguishable from magic." You could extend that to say it's indistinguishable from Godly powers as well.

To add my 2 cents worth to the "knowledge & belief" debate, in my opinion it is a perfectly defensible position for someone to say "I do/do not (delete as applicable) believe there is a God, but in my judgement, there is no proof one way or the other." What in my opinion is fundamentally indefensible (and in my opinion totally abhorrent) is for somebody to force their beliefs on somebody else. This is Clyntahn's position, i.e. "You will accept what I say or we will kill you and your family, slowly and painfully.

And finally, I'll add my name to the lists
(a) of people who have thanked RFC for his Christmas present, and
(b) of those who have expressed their curiosity about what's just appeared on or near the Seridahn River.
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