HFQ Official Snippet #15 Merry Christmas!

thanatos wrote:All hail MWW and thank him for his holiday gifts!

Actually, something in the Inner Circle's options concerning Sahndaria, reminded me of one the final scenes in "The Chronicles of Narnia: The Last Battle". It's the scene where the Dwarfs, already deceived and mistreated by the followers of the false Aslan, refuse to believe that they have crossed the threshold into Aslan's country and believe that they are only in a dark barn - Their unwillingness to be deceived again blinds them to the truth. While this is an allegory to the power of faith in Christian theology (I think since I'm neither a theologian nor a Christian) it does present part of the problems the Inner Circle faces. Many, if not most, of those exposed to the truth and to the evidence supporting it would likely accept it. For there the question is how will their faith endure. For some it will be altered but remain more-or-less intact while others are likely to become atheist (as Baron Wave Thunder has done). And there will always be those, like Sahndaria, who will have extreme difficulties in accepting the truth and who will need to be "neutralized". Yet how many will react as the dwarfs of Narnia, refusing to believe even the evidence of their own eyes? I've often wondered what would happen if Zhaspahr Clyntahn were captured and taken to Nimue's Cave. Would he accept the truth if it were presented to him? Or would it break him mentally? For a man whose entire identity revolves around the power granted to him by God (supposedly), the Writ and the Church, how would he react if he were literally taken to Shan-wei's lair?

n7axw wrote:As I recall that segment about Wave Thunder, he would be better descibed as an agnostic than an atheist. He was wondering that since one religion turned out to be a fraud, all of them might be. The difference between wonder and might on the one hand, and "I'm convinced it's true" on the other, is the dfference beteen agnosticism and atheism. I don't think we've actually encountered a convinced atheist in the Safehold serries.

Don

JeffEngel wrote:Ehhh... agnosticism has it that we cannot know one way or the other.

kbus888 wrote:=2014/12/25=
Thank you RFC

May this season surround you and everyone in your corner of the universe with joy, peace, and strength.

btw: -- should this new chapter be number <VI> ???

R
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JeffEngel wrote:

n7axw wrote:As I recall that segment about Wave Thunder, he would be better descibed as an agnostic than an atheist. He was wondering that since one religion turned out to be a fraud, all of them might be. The difference between wonder and might on the one hand, and "I'm convinced it's true" on the other, is the dfference beteen agnosticism and atheism. I don't think we've actually encountered a convinced atheist in the Safehold serries.

Don

Ehhh... agnosticism has it that we cannot know one way or the other. Being uncertain while not ruling out knowability isn't that. For that matter, you could suppose that all religions are fictions and that God does still exist: it's just that no historical religion has managed to be about that God. And heck - Archbishop Staynair himself isn't likely to claim to know there is a God, or to be able to know it. He's simply serenely hopeful. You could call him an agnostic, but you'd be irresponsible not to rush right on and describe his position better than that.

And atheism is - to take the two really likely definitions - the absence of belief in God or the belief that there is no such being. Any of us (well, barring a peculiar sort of insanity) can hold beliefs with varying convictions. It'd be forced to restrict the term 'atheist' to someone whose conviction there is no Deity is absolute, right up there with "1=1".

As I recall, Baron Wave Thunder is carrying on the strong suspicion that all religions have been fictions and there there isn't a God. Do you want to count a strong suspicion as a belief? That comes down to preferences for word usage and an estimate of what choice will make you least understood by others. It could go either way. Me, I'd count a strong suspicion as a belief if I must, but I'd rather just refer to it as a strong suspicion. If that makes pigeon-holing Baron Wave Thunder and slapping a label on him harder, great! It's a frank recognition these are complex things rather than slogan-fodder.

runsforcelery wrote:“Neither Nimue nor I have any intention of doing anything hasty, Nynian.” His tone was as gentle as his headshake. “There’s no reason to, and no need.” He returned his gaze to Sandaria. “No one will attempt to force you to believe or do anything that violates your own inner convictions. There’s a reason Cayleb and Sharleyan have guaranteed the religious freedom of even Temple Loyalists in the Empire, and if they can do that there, how could they — or I — justify not respecting your religious freedom?”

“Obviously, we can’t allow someone to share what we’ve just revealed to you with the Group of Four,” he said more somberly, “but at this moment, you couldn’t do that even if you wanted to. You’re here, in the Cave, with no way to communicate with anyone outside it. Under those circumstances, we’re prepared to give you all the time you need to decide what you believe. In fact, that’s the main reason we brought you and Nynian here in the first place; so that our hands wouldn’ t be forced if either of you decided you couldn’t accept what we had to tell you.

“We’re willing to leave you here where you can discuss the true history of Safehold with Owl and Nahrmahn, if you wish. To allow you unfettered access to Owl’s libraries and the ability to discuss their contents with any other member of the inner circle — including Nynian — for however long you like. And if, in the end, you decide you can’t become a part of the inner circle, we’ll give you the choice between remaining what you might think of as a prisoner of state here in Nimue’s Cave, in comfort and physical safety, with all the companionship we can provide, or of being placed in the same sort of cryo-sleep in which the colonists originally traveled to Safehold. No subjective time would pass for you from the moment you fell asleep to the moment you were once again awakened. The only thing we’d take from you would be the the opportunity to actively oppose us, and that, I’m afraid, is a position at which, as Cayleb put it, ‘We can do no other.’”

Silence fell once more, and he let it linger while a half dozen slow, oozing minutes ticked into eternity. Then, still looking at her with that gentle smile, he said, “The choice is yours, Sandaria. We refuse to be one iota more ruthless than we have to, and this time, we have a choice, just as you do.”