HFQ Official Snippet #14

I think this thread has been rather thoroughly hijacked. Some that, I suspect is because we are pretty much in agreement with the content of RFC's little homily. So there doesn't seem to me to be that much to discuss.

But on the other hand, Clyntahn has been discussed adnaseum in these threads... So maybe we could reflect upon Nynian and Sandaria's responses to what they are hearing.

We don't have much on either of them yet. Nynian seems alarmed that Sandaria is getting herself in trouble. But Sandaria seems to have recovered from her shock enough to start constructively engaging...

I think Merlin and Nimue are handling the situation beautifully so far. I remain cautiously opptimistic.

Don

n7axw wrote:I think this thread has been rather thoroughly hijacked. Some that, I suspect is because we are pretty much in agreement with the content of RFC's little homily. So there doesn't seem to me to be that much to discuss.

But on the other hand, Clyntahn has been discussed adnaseum in these threads... So maybe we could reflect upon Nynian and Sandaria's responses to what they are hearing.

We don't have much on either of them yet. Nynian seems alarmed that Sandaria is getting herself in trouble. But Sandaria seems to have recovered from her shock enough to start constructively engaging...

I think Merlin and Nimue are handling the situation beautifully so far. I remain cautiously opptimistic.

Don

Nynian's well aware of the stakes and just how bad it may be for Sandaria if Sandaria cannot handle this. In fact, I doubt Nynian's yet aware of the cryo or imprisonment options and is running on the "take it in stride or die" scenario for this sort of revelation. So yeah, being a bit worried that her initiative may mean her best friend has to die will harm Nynian's poise.

Sandaria's got one or two things going against her compared to most for handling The Truth easily. First, it's coming at her a lot harder than for most: from a Safehold background into a recon skimmer into the realm of the Archangels deep beneath the very mountain on which they first laid foot upon Safehold, and told the whole thing was a lie and the truth is chock full of concepts for which she has no background at all. Second, being an initiate into the secrets of the SSK may mean that she's figuring she's already about as deep inside "the onion" as can be, and all that's left is filling in details along lines the Sisters have already speculated on - and then she finds out that only their wildest speculations even hinted at the truth.

And she's put her finger on one of the most troubling issues for anyone who thinks and feels seriously about God: the problem of evil, and whether or not it's rational (maybe even responsible) to believe there's an all-powerful, all-knowing, halfway decent God at all.

That's enough to trouble anyone deeply all on its own, but most of us have work and family and friends all to help us keep our bearings meanwhile, but Sandaria's just heard that all she's understood about her world and her work is based on a lie too, and she's buried underground in a cave with two machines looking like people and a ghost.

I figure anyone gets credits starting at any reaction better than going fetal and moaning under the circumstances.

I'm still concerned. Aivah's concern could have been that Sandra was about to do something that would preclude them being allowed to leave. If Aivah isn't buying the line, the first hint anyone is going to have is when her factors begin denouncing Charis as legitimately heretical.

n7axw wrote:I think this thread has been rather thoroughly hijacked. Some that, I suspect is because we are pretty much in agreement with the content of RFC's little homily. So there doesn't seem to me to be that much to discuss.

But on the other hand, Clyntahn has been discussed adnaseum in these threads... So maybe we could reflect upon Nynian and Sandaria's responses to what they are hearing.

We don't have much on either of them yet. Nynian seems alarmed that Sandaria is getting herself in trouble. But Sandaria seems to have recovered from her shock enough to start constructively engaging...

I think Merlin and Nimue are handling the situation beautifully so far. I remain cautiously opptimistic.

Don

Thank you, RFC. Merry Christmas, one and all!

JeffEngel wrote:Sandaria's got one or two things going against her compared to most for handling The Truth easily. First, it's coming at her a lot harder than for most: from a Safehold background into a recon skimmer into the realm of the Archangels deep beneath the very mountain on which they first laid foot upon Safehold, and told the whole thing was a lie and the truth is chock full of concepts for which she has no background at all.

I think it's a bit simpler, really.

To someone from Safehold who hasn't a long time to wrestle with prior revelation, call it that, Merlin and Nimue are either angels, demons, or some third and more terrible category of being.

The way Merlin is talking about demons being their friends, the place they're located, the obvious breadth of stuff involved, all pretty much -- correctly! -- forbid the "remnant divine aid from the first years after creation" explanation for the rapid movement. It stops being a "the enemy of my enemy behaves ethically" and starts being a recognition that there is no possible way to evaluate what you are being told in terms of facts.

So, do you trust the inhuman killing machine who frankly admits they're willing to slaughter millions in service of some higher (and incomprehensible) objective? When you didn't think there were any divine being on Safehold anymore?

Graydon wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:Sandaria's got one or two things going against her compared to most for handling The Truth easily. First, it's coming at her a lot harder than for most: from a Safehold background into a recon skimmer into the realm of the Archangels deep beneath the very mountain on which they first laid foot upon Safehold, and told the whole thing was a lie and the truth is chock full of concepts for which she has no background at all.

I think it's a bit simpler, really.

To someone from Safehold who hasn't a long time to wrestle with prior revelation, call it that, Merlin and Nimue are either angels, demons, or some third and more terrible category of being.

The way Merlin is talking about demons being their friends, the place they're located, the obvious breadth of stuff involved, all pretty much -- correctly! -- forbid the "remnant divine aid from the first years after creation" explanation for the rapid movement. It stops being a "the enemy of my enemy behaves ethically" and starts being a recognition that there is no possible way to evaluate what you are being told in terms of facts.

So, do you trust the inhuman killing machine who frankly admits they're willing to slaughter millions in service of some higher (and incomprehensible) objective? When you didn't think there were any divine being on Safehold anymore?

That's possible. Certainly that kind of narrative isn't going to be far from the mind of anyone on Safehold. Then again, the journal of St. Kohdy at least suggested feet of clay for the archangels and that a human being could wield the weapons of an angel. So there's some room to go from that basis to suppose the "Archangels" simply were human beings wielding technology beyond what Safehold has, that those prior times and distant places suggested by St. Kohdy's writings were quite a lot deeper in their scope than they'd suspected.

I think, poor thing, Sandaria already knows enough not to be able to settle for the "simpler" solution that they've been very wrong and are now in the presence of demons or worse, but that that kind of idea is certainly another log on a fire that's burning all too vigorously.

JeffEngel wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:Sandaria's got one or two things going against her compared to most for handling The Truth easily. First, it's coming at her a lot harder than for most: from a Safehold background into a recon skimmer into the realm of the Archangels deep beneath the very mountain on which they first laid foot upon Safehold, and told the whole thing was a lie and the truth is chock full of concepts for which she has no background at all.

Graydon wrote:
I think it's a bit simpler, really.

To someone from Safehold who hasn't a long time to wrestle with prior revelation, call it that, Merlin and Nimue are either angels, demons, or some third and more terrible category of being.

The way Merlin is talking about demons being their friends, the place they're located, the obvious breadth of stuff involved, all pretty much -- correctly! -- forbid the "remnant divine aid from the first years after creation" explanation for the rapid movement. It stops being a "the enemy of my enemy behaves ethically" and starts being a recognition that there is no possible way to evaluate what you are being told in terms of facts.

So, do you trust the inhuman killing machine who frankly admits they're willing to slaughter millions in service of some higher (and incomprehensible) objective? When you didn't think there were any divine being on Safehold anymore?

That's possible. Certainly that kind of narrative isn't going to be far from the mind of anyone on Safehold. Then again, the journal of St. Kohdy at least suggested feet of clay for the archangels and that a human being could wield the weapons of an angel. So there's some room to go from that basis to suppose the "Archangels" simply were human beings wielding technology beyond what Safehold has, that those prior times and distant places suggested by St. Kohdy's writings were quite a lot deeper in their scope than they'd suspected.

I think, poor thing, Sandaria already knows enough not to be able to settle for the "simpler" solution that they've been very wrong and are now in the presence of demons or worse, but that that kind of idea is certainly another log on a fire that's burning all too vigorously.

Given that they have already used St Kohdy's sword to shave a block of granite, having Merlin do the same thing with his katana might be reassuring, or having them use his katana to do the same thing, might well be reassuring, as they now know that Merlin's technology is similar to that the St Kohdy used.

JeffEngel wrote:

Graydon wrote:[no category for Merlin & Nimue except angels or demons]
So, do you trust the inhuman killing machine who frankly admits they're willing to slaughter millions in service of some higher (and incomprehensible) objective? When you didn't think there were any divine being on Safehold anymore?

That's possible. Certainly that kind of narrative isn't going to be far from the mind of anyone on Safehold. Then again, the journal of St. Kohdy at least suggested feet of clay for the archangels and that a human being could wield the weapons of an angel. So there's some room to go from that basis to suppose the "Archangels" simply were human beings wielding technology beyond what Safehold has, that those prior times and distant places suggested by St. Kohdy's writings were quite a lot deeper in their scope than they'd suspected.

I think, poor thing, Sandaria already knows enough not to be able to settle for the "simpler" solution that they've been very wrong and are now in the presence of demons or worse, but that that kind of idea is certainly another log on a fire that's burning all too vigorously.

I think St. Khody's journal gives them the possibility of divine politics, rather than "it's just technology, accessible to humans". Angels are not entirely good -- or don't use a value of good comprehensible to mortals -- and that might allow for the idea that demons are not entirely bad. It doesn't provide tools for resolving the implied moral conflict of "what do you do when the angel does something bad?"

King Haralhd, despite having the Brethren and the journal and a little bit of alternative moral context for a long time still thought of Merlin as an arch-angel.

(Note how much of how the continued existence of the Sisters of St. Khody is explained in terms of "we are sure St. Khody was a good man"; that's a faith statement, rather than moral reasoning, against the awful weight of orthodoxy.)

So the main decision -- can we trust the Emperor Cayleb's demon familiar? (which, given even modest orthodoxy, Merlin totally is!) -- is one they've got to invent something to solve.

(And I do wonder what the Sisters have been using for priests; the Church of God Awaiting doesn't seem to be exceptionally confessional, but it would take a very dim priest to not recognize something has been going on.)

At some point it will perhaps occur to someone to ask Aivah to repeat the Saint Khody diary from memory, especially the espagnol parts, and have OWL translate as she goes.

Graydon wrote:(And I do wonder what the Sisters have been using for priests; the Church of God Awaiting doesn't seem to be exceptionally confessional, but it would take a very dim priest to not recognize something has been going on.)

I think the small orders resolve most of their confessional needs in-house.

The Brotherhood of St. Zherneau has infiltrated a lot of Charis' priesthood - it helped them that that priesthood tended to be Charisian and stay in Charis - so they could get some low- and middle-level support.

The Sisters of St. Kohdy don't have the advantage of having members moving up the mainland priesthood, but they do have plenty of family connections, money, and history. That their own confessional needs are handled in-house may be something they've had to downplay, or perhaps have some Sisters carry on with an uninitiated "public" confessor and another one from within the Sisterhood with the appropriate (may as well call it) security clearance.