SWM wrote:As soon as the Truth is revealed, there is no need for internal combustion engines--far better energy sources will become available. If the Truth is revealed about the time of the Angelic Return, that's less than 20 years. I don't think the Proscriptions will be overturned until then. I think there is no need for internal combustion engines during that interval.
I seriously doubt that. The vast majority of Safehold would view that technology as blasphemy. As an abuse of angelic power. Remember that pretty much the entire planet believes that god and the angels were -real-. You're not going to change most of those minds just by saying what you claim is the truth, they won't believe it. You're going to have until the current population is dead and gone before you can expose the population to all of the advanced technology. Remember you have to give them time to change the mentality of the population, to give them the framework to understand what you're offering.
Right now, what Merlin is working on is a step by step process that people can understand. Jumping from steam directly to fusion power isn't going to be understood because the planet simply doesn't have the mental framework to understand and accept it.
fallsfromtrees wrote:Zakharra wrote:Yes steam engines and vehicles are possible, but there isn't the vast tech or historical base like there is for the IC engine.
Lets see now,
The practical steam engine was invented in 1710 - Newcomen, and steam engines were in fairly extensive use into the mid 1950's - approximately 240 years, during which development was on going, but assume development stopped in 1910. so that's 200 years of active development. The gasoline engine was invented in 1876 or thereabouts, and really hasn't changed much since 2000 or even earlier. That's about 125 years of development. So it appears that the vast historical base is in favor of the steam engine.
The major reason for the primacy of the gas engine was Standard Oil pushing for a replacement product for the kerosene that was being phased out for lighting. Gasoline was that product. Steam wasn't acceptable because you could burn anything to raise steam, you didn't have to use Standard Oil's gasoline. In the 1910's the Stanley Steamer was one of the premiere vehicles on the road. They in fact were subjected to a vicious smear campaign that eventually drove the company out of business.
The destruction of mass transit (at least in the Los Angeles area) can be laid at the feet of Firestone, standard Oil, and General Motors. Those 3 bought up the trolley lines in LA post World War II, and shut them down to encourage the use of automobiles. I know - sounds like the story line from Who Framed Roger Rabbit?. The movie was based on an actual case. The three companies were eventually convicted of an antitrust violation for their actions, but unfortunately, were only fined minimally. It has since cost the citizens of California billions to replace the light rail system they destroyed.
I think that given that things like flash boilers are going to be available much sooner, that steam is in fact going to replace the IC engine as the primary motive power for personal transportation. Remember also that the primary innovators in this brave new world are going to have access to OWL's history files, and will initially be able to use things like flash boilers, that steam will gain such an edge that the IC engine will be seen as an oddity, and the same cultural biases that led to the IC engine becoming preeminent in our world will lead to stem becoming preeminent on Safehold.
The IC engine displaced steam pretty fast on most things. A publicity campaign certainly had an effect, but they are a hell of a lot more convenient and require less maintenance (a steam powered tractor or truck is going to require more maintenance than a gas/diesel powered one by several factors. Not to mention a steam one would be impossible to use in the winter. Ice in the pipes.). You can let a car/truck/tractor sit for awhile and then hop into them and go. That's not exactly possible for a steam engine, plus you have to worry about leaking pipes and corrosion. What about water that is heavy in minerals? Do you have to use distilled water then?
Past a certain point, the steam engine isn't practical for small vehicle or farm use. Definitely not on planes either. There is a niche for steam, smaller vehicles isn't it, and that's what we're talking about. For the small vehicles (cars and trucks, and tractors) there is a lot of historical development. Development steam didn't get. We have the last century of our time to use and if Safehold has the petrochemical resources, I don't see why we should ignore it because some people have a problem with some of the side effects. You and others would rather restricting the freedom of movement (no cars for you until they have electric cars) until there are options in place that you approve of.
A question for you, what if a Safehold nation or nations decide to develop the IC engine? What then? I don't see Merlin stopping or trying to restrict them. He wants modern development on Safehold. It's going to take time to make the tools to make the tools to make the tools to make the machines that can make fusion power plants. Plus it is going to take time to change the mentality and train and educate people so they understand what is being developed/offered.
Another question I don't think I've seen answered is; what other alternatives for airplanes are there besides IC engines? Steam engines and stirlings can't work for a air plane or for a jet.
I will point another thing out, if steam engines are/were so good, why did the IC engine display steam development in Europe? The US automakers or tire makers didn't have anything close to a monopoly in Europe, yet Europe went with the IC engine over steam.
Kind of off topic, I wonder what MWW thinks of this discussion. It is a good one on all sides, the pros and cons of each development and such. I know it is spinning off ideas for me on my world making.
