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Advanced tech without electricity/internal combustion?

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Re: Advanced tech without electricity/internal combustion?
Post by Zakharra   » Tue Dec 23, 2014 1:15 pm

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SWM wrote:As soon as the Truth is revealed, there is no need for internal combustion engines--far better energy sources will become available. If the Truth is revealed about the time of the Angelic Return, that's less than 20 years. I don't think the Proscriptions will be overturned until then. I think there is no need for internal combustion engines during that interval.



I seriously doubt that. The vast majority of Safehold would view that technology as blasphemy. As an abuse of angelic power. Remember that pretty much the entire planet believes that god and the angels were -real-. You're not going to change most of those minds just by saying what you claim is the truth, they won't believe it. You're going to have until the current population is dead and gone before you can expose the population to all of the advanced technology. Remember you have to give them time to change the mentality of the population, to give them the framework to understand what you're offering.

Right now, what Merlin is working on is a step by step process that people can understand. Jumping from steam directly to fusion power isn't going to be understood because the planet simply doesn't have the mental framework to understand and accept it.

fallsfromtrees wrote:
Zakharra wrote:Yes steam engines and vehicles are possible, but there isn't the vast tech or historical base like there is for the IC engine.

Lets see now,

The practical steam engine was invented in 1710 - Newcomen, and steam engines were in fairly extensive use into the mid 1950's - approximately 240 years, during which development was on going, but assume development stopped in 1910. so that's 200 years of active development. The gasoline engine was invented in 1876 or thereabouts, and really hasn't changed much since 2000 or even earlier. That's about 125 years of development. So it appears that the vast historical base is in favor of the steam engine.

The major reason for the primacy of the gas engine was Standard Oil pushing for a replacement product for the kerosene that was being phased out for lighting. Gasoline was that product. Steam wasn't acceptable because you could burn anything to raise steam, you didn't have to use Standard Oil's gasoline. In the 1910's the Stanley Steamer was one of the premiere vehicles on the road. They in fact were subjected to a vicious smear campaign that eventually drove the company out of business.

The destruction of mass transit (at least in the Los Angeles area) can be laid at the feet of Firestone, standard Oil, and General Motors. Those 3 bought up the trolley lines in LA post World War II, and shut them down to encourage the use of automobiles. I know - sounds like the story line from Who Framed Roger Rabbit?. The movie was based on an actual case. The three companies were eventually convicted of an antitrust violation for their actions, but unfortunately, were only fined minimally. It has since cost the citizens of California billions to replace the light rail system they destroyed.

I think that given that things like flash boilers are going to be available much sooner, that steam is in fact going to replace the IC engine as the primary motive power for personal transportation. Remember also that the primary innovators in this brave new world are going to have access to OWL's history files, and will initially be able to use things like flash boilers, that steam will gain such an edge that the IC engine will be seen as an oddity, and the same cultural biases that led to the IC engine becoming preeminent in our world will lead to stem becoming preeminent on Safehold.


The IC engine displaced steam pretty fast on most things. A publicity campaign certainly had an effect, but they are a hell of a lot more convenient and require less maintenance (a steam powered tractor or truck is going to require more maintenance than a gas/diesel powered one by several factors. Not to mention a steam one would be impossible to use in the winter. Ice in the pipes.). You can let a car/truck/tractor sit for awhile and then hop into them and go. That's not exactly possible for a steam engine, plus you have to worry about leaking pipes and corrosion. What about water that is heavy in minerals? Do you have to use distilled water then?

Past a certain point, the steam engine isn't practical for small vehicle or farm use. Definitely not on planes either. There is a niche for steam, smaller vehicles isn't it, and that's what we're talking about. For the small vehicles (cars and trucks, and tractors) there is a lot of historical development. Development steam didn't get. We have the last century of our time to use and if Safehold has the petrochemical resources, I don't see why we should ignore it because some people have a problem with some of the side effects. You and others would rather restricting the freedom of movement (no cars for you until they have electric cars) until there are options in place that you approve of.

A question for you, what if a Safehold nation or nations decide to develop the IC engine? What then? I don't see Merlin stopping or trying to restrict them. He wants modern development on Safehold. It's going to take time to make the tools to make the tools to make the tools to make the machines that can make fusion power plants. Plus it is going to take time to change the mentality and train and educate people so they understand what is being developed/offered.

Another question I don't think I've seen answered is; what other alternatives for airplanes are there besides IC engines? Steam engines and stirlings can't work for a air plane or for a jet.

I will point another thing out, if steam engines are/were so good, why did the IC engine display steam development in Europe? The US automakers or tire makers didn't have anything close to a monopoly in Europe, yet Europe went with the IC engine over steam.


Kind of off topic, I wonder what MWW thinks of this discussion. It is a good one on all sides, the pros and cons of each development and such. I know it is spinning off ideas for me on my world making. :D
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Re: Advanced tech without electricity/internal combustion?
Post by SWM   » Tue Dec 23, 2014 2:05 pm

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Zakharra wrote:
SWM wrote:As soon as the Truth is revealed, there is no need for internal combustion engines--far better energy sources will become available. If the Truth is revealed about the time of the Angelic Return, that's less than 20 years. I don't think the Proscriptions will be overturned until then. I think there is no need for internal combustion engines during that interval.



I seriously doubt that. The vast majority of Safehold would view that technology as blasphemy. As an abuse of angelic power. Remember that pretty much the entire planet believes that god and the angels were -real-. You're not going to change most of those minds just by saying what you claim is the truth, they won't believe it. You're going to have until the current population is dead and gone before you can expose the population to all of the advanced technology. Remember you have to give them time to change the mentality of the population, to give them the framework to understand what you're offering.

Right now, what Merlin is working on is a step by step process that people can understand. Jumping from steam directly to fusion power isn't going to be understood because the planet simply doesn't have the mental framework to understand and accept it.

Exactly what is it that you seriously doubt? Do you doubt that the Truth will be revealed in 20 years when the Archangels return?

SPOILER WARNING:













David said in an interview a couple months ago that there would be two more books on the current war, and then there would be:
"a twenty-year or so hiatus on Safehold while technology kind of changes and morphs and what not, and then they are gonna have to deal with telling the Truth about Archangels and so forth, which is gonna kick off another war which will be even nastier in some ways but probably shorter."

So we have been specifically told that the Truth will be revealed in 20 years or so, about the time of the Angelic Return.
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Re: Advanced tech without electricity/internal combustion?
Post by Graydon   » Tue Dec 23, 2014 2:39 pm

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Zakharra wrote:The IC engine displaced steam pretty fast on most things. A publicity campaign certainly had an effect, but they are a hell of a lot more convenient and require less maintenance (a steam powered tractor or truck is going to require more maintenance than a gas/diesel powered one by several factors. Not to mention a steam one would be impossible to use in the winter. Ice in the pipes.).


In the same way a gasoline engine is impossible to use in winter because the radiator freezes?

IC engines don't start displacing steam in ships until the 1950s and it doesn't get comprehensive until the 1980s.

IC engines didn't start displacing steam in trains until after a whole pile of governmental money got sunk for diesels for submarines. (And then you get the Napier Deltaic, a marvel of power-to-weight and a maintenance problem.) And then the "better" for trains isn't mechanical, it's in reduced crew. Something Safehold can't have until they can have electrical controls, at which point they can have fusion. Look at something like the LMS Turbomotive; steam can beat diesel's operating efficiency under circumstances (like Safehold) where there will have to be a crew in each cab anyway.

The Stanley Steamer engine has 13 major parts. It's direct drive. No transmission, two simple robust sliding valves, no spark plugs -- and on Safehold, you either can't have spark plugs or you can have fusion -- and there are hundred year old running examples that have been maintained by not rebuilt. You're going to have a real problem coming up with a first generation diesel that's got better power-to-weight or is easier to maintain.

Zakharra wrote:You can let a car/truck/tractor sit for awhile and then hop into them and go. That's not exactly possible for a steam engine, plus you have to worry about leaking pipes and corrosion. What about water that is heavy in minerals? Do you have to use distilled water then?


You certainly can't let first generation cars/trucks/tractors sit for months and then expect them to just work; you can't compare modern IC engines to 1900 steam engines and get a sensible result. You have to compare the (cantankerous, erratic, hand-cranked, < 10 hours MTF...) 1900 IC engine to the 1900 steam engine.

You're also supposing that the IC engine never has problems with, for example, condensate in the fuel when it gets cold. These are all solved problems now but they certainly aren't on Safehold.

Zakharra wrote:if Safehold has the petrochemical resources, I don't see why we should ignore it because some people have a problem with some of the side effects. You and others would rather restricting the freedom of movement (no cars for you until they have electric cars) until there are options in place that you approve of.


Well, they can't build cars yet; the economy isn't there. Doesn't really matter what kind of engine. They're at the start of the fifty years that ended around 1930 when widespread private automobiles weren't a real possibility and people took the train. (Irrespective of how the cars are powered.) By our -- Anglo-NorAm -- standards, Safehold is very, very poor.

We don't know what the Archangel Pasquale had to say about smoke inhalation or other industrial pollution; we know they've got things like phosphorous and asbestos expected to be in use, with strict rules, so it's not impossible there are rules about smoke and coal ash, too. The Delthak Works may be obliged by canon law to be located well away from population centres.

Safehold is already habitable in part because of a more active carbon cycle and higher atmospheric CO2, so it's more vulnerable to industrial activity carbon loading its atmosphere than Earth is, and Earth is already plenty vulnerable. Human civilization on Safehold is already dependent on genetically engineered crops with necessarily limited genetic breadth; munging up the climate could easily be much worse there than here. I don't think anyone on Safehold is in a position to evaluate that risk, either. They've got a former space navy tactical officer, not an ecologist or a biologist.

Zakharra wrote:Another question I don't think I've seen answered is; what other alternatives for airplanes are there besides IC engines? Steam engines and stirlings can't work for a air plane or for a jet.


Stirlings certainly can work for aircraft.

But, really, whatever the Federation tech uses is magic; you've got something roughly the size of an F-16 that can sustain hypersonic mach numbers halfway around the planet without refueling and make multiple orbital trips! If you need aircraft, that's what you go for if you possibly can.

In the meantime, aircraft aren't essential to development -- they've already got excellent maps and aerial resource surveys! -- and you are back in 1900, standard-of-living wise. (if not 1850.) Aircraft are only useful if there are a lot of people with the money to travel on them; that takes about 1960 in our time line, and hopefully Safehold won't get the development boost from strategic bombing our history got. So at least three generations before it's a significant possibility.

Zakharra wrote:I will point another thing out, if steam engines are/were so good, why did the IC engine display steam development in Europe? The US automakers or tire makers didn't have anything close to a monopoly in Europe, yet Europe went with the IC engine over steam.


In large part because of the Great War. Not only had immense development resources been sunk into high power-to-weight ratio engines for aircraft, the main industrial nations of Europe -- France, Germany, and Czechoslovakia -- had just lost ~4% of their population, mostly from the young men. These are not conditions under which major innovation takes place; you're just trying to keep going. (Note that both BMW and Mercedes-Benz have logos based on aircraft propellers. That's where the companies started, aircraft engines.)

And you're still looking at a displacement that took fifty years and mostly happened (for everything except automobiles) AFTER Hitler's War. Most of the Wehrmacht's logistics were horse-drawn.

And Hitler's War, among other things, sank a whole lot of money into IC engine development again.
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Re: Advanced tech without electricity/internal combustion?
Post by Castenea   » Tue Dec 23, 2014 2:55 pm

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Zakharra wrote: Past a certain point, the steam engine isn't practical for small vehicle or farm use. Definitely not on planes either. There is a niche for steam, smaller vehicles isn't it, and that's what we're talking about. For the small vehicles (cars and trucks, and tractors) there is a lot of historical development. Development steam didn't get. We have the last century of our time to use and if Safehold has the petrochemical resources, I don't see why we should ignore it because some people have a problem with some of the side effects. You and others would rather restricting the freedom of movement (no cars for you until they have electric cars) until there are options in place that you approve of.

I think this is the point where so many are missing, the initial penetration of Gasoline engines was into applications where today we use electric motors almost exclusively (washing machines anyone?). You can find pictures of steam traction engines used for running threshers and other farm equipment with traces attached, because they were not self propelled. Some of the early IC tractor and cars were little more than hit or miss engines bolted onto a wagon frame, and belt drive (and there were reasons these were generally very low production). I think those who are suggesting steam cars even after the proscriptions and OBS are no longer factors should read the starting procedures for a Stanely Steamer.

The IC engine will likely take longer to displace steam on Safehold than it did here. Charis is likely to be using steam tech from the 1930's to 1950's when early gasoline or diesel are introduced. On earth using steam for anything smaller than a locomotive was uncommon by 1920, and virtually unheard of by 1950.
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Re: Advanced tech without electricity/internal combustion?
Post by Graydon   » Tue Dec 23, 2014 4:02 pm

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Castenea wrote:I think this is the point where so many are missing, the initial penetration of Gasoline engines was into applications where today we use electric motors almost exclusively (washing machines anyone?).


Only on Safehold, you can't, under the Proscriptions, have a spark plug.

Diesel is harder than Otto Cycle; you need tighter tolerances and higher compression and thus strength. Otto Cycle really needs that spark plug.

So Safehold is kinda stuck with external combustion for the next ... twenty years, maybe? It's going to be awhile before there's an economic basis for diesel engine manufacturing. Which is why flash-tube boilers and Stirling engines sound attractive in context.
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Re: Advanced tech without electricity/internal combustion?
Post by n7axw   » Tue Dec 23, 2014 5:21 pm

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Hi gang,

Zakharra, what Harold is concerned about is polution and spewing carbon in the air. His concern is valid. I will add that global warming is real and that is what unrestricted use of fossil fuels has given us. It's not so much a personal freedom issue as a survival issue long term...

I do part ways with Harold a bit in being confident that the problems including those with ic engines can be solved or else we will find other ways of powering our cars.

Actually what I am finding troubling is everyone's apparent assumption that nuclear power is in Safehold's future to the point where I have seen no discussion of the pros and cons. Chernoble (sp) anyone? Or how about Japan after the tsunami? Then too, how in the dickens do we get rid of the waste?

Don
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Re: Advanced tech without electricity/internal combustion?
Post by ksandgren   » Tue Dec 23, 2014 5:31 pm

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n7axw wrote:Hi gang,



Actually what I am finding troubling is everyone's apparent assumption that nuclear power is in Safehold's future to the point where I have seen no discussion of the pros and cons. Chernoble (sp) anyone? Or how about Japan after the tsunami? Then too, how in the dickens do we get rid of the waste?

Don



I agree with you on this one. Inability to handle the waste with a halflife longer than the time of creation to present is a real hazard. That is why I would guess going to fusion rapidly instead. Making helium with a trace of lithium is much less toxic than plutonium and radon.
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Re: Advanced tech without electricity/internal combustion?
Post by SWM   » Tue Dec 23, 2014 6:15 pm

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n7axw wrote:Hi gang,

Zakharra, what Harold is concerned about is polution and spewing carbon in the air. His concern is valid. I will add that global warming is real and that is what unrestricted use of fossil fuels has given us. It's not so much a personal freedom issue as a survival issue long term...

I do part ways with Harold a bit in being confident that the problems including those with ic engines can be solved or else we will find other ways of powering our cars.

Actually what I am finding troubling is everyone's apparent assumption that nuclear power is in Safehold's future to the point where I have seen no discussion of the pros and cons. Chernoble (sp) anyone? Or how about Japan after the tsunami? Then too, how in the dickens do we get rid of the waste?

Don

I'm not sure what you are talking about--no one is pushing nuclear fission power generation in this thread.
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Re: Advanced tech without electricity/internal combustion?
Post by n7axw   » Tue Dec 23, 2014 6:55 pm

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SWM wrote:
n7axw wrote:Hi gang,

Zakharra, what Harold is concerned about is polution and spewing carbon in the air. His concern is valid. I will add that global warming is real and that is what unrestricted use of fossil fuels has given us. It's not so much a personal freedom issue as a survival issue long term...

I do part ways with Harold a bit in being confident that the problems including those with ic engines can be solved or else we will find other ways of powering our cars.

Actually what I am finding troubling is everyone's apparent assumption that nuclear power is in Safehold's future to the point where I have seen no discussion of the pros and cons. Chernoble (sp) anyone? Or how about Japan after the tsunami? Then too, how in the dickens do we get rid of the waste?

Don

I'm not sure what you are talking about--no one is pushing nuclear fission power generation in this thread.


I'm probably not adequately distinguishing between fusion and fission.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Advanced tech without electricity/internal combustion?
Post by Graydon   » Tue Dec 23, 2014 7:41 pm

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n7axw wrote:I'm probably not adequately distinguishing between fusion and fission.


The kind of fusion we could possibly build would have radiation worries; there are neutrons, neutrons hit stuff and make it radioactive, even with "aneutronic" mixes like boron-11 and a proton, and so on.

Federation "fusion" tech, like whatever powers Merlin (without making Merlin's surface really noticeably hot; our body temperature is a function of the work our cells do, if Merlin's PICA body can operate ten times as fast it's using more than ten times the energy...) is somewhat magical. If Safehold has access to that, of course that's what they should build. They probably have to start with hydro-electric for build-the-tools-to-make-the-tools.

(The fission we have built has a much, much smaller body count per MegaWatt than anything else, in part because people are terrified of it, and there are approaches to handling the waste; one of the most promising is to "burn" it in one of the assisted-fission designs that uses small amounts of fissionable materials at a time and induce useful fission rates with a particle beam.)
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