Advanced tech without electricity/internal combustion?

Weird Harold wrote:

Zakharra wrote:...I don't know if there is train service here or not. If there is, it is at night when the passenger trains pass through and that being just once a night.

There probably isn't any passenger rail service in Sand Point but that lack doesn't mean there never has been, or shouldn't be on Safehold.

You're arguing that passenger rail and mass-transit isn't viable because it doesn't exist. I'm arguing that if it did exist it would be viable because the simple fact of its existence would indicate a different mindset than the standard American "Me First" attitude.

You're also arguing that because it won't work in the panhandle of Idaho, it can't work on Safehold -- which doesn't have a tradition of personal vehicle and an installed base of several million ICEs and a globe spanning petro-chemical industry.

You're arguing that "government" has to maintain inter-city highways, yet there is no trans-siberian highway, only a trans-siberian railroad. Very similar to the US transcontinental railroad of the 1860's. Local government needs to maintain local roads, but there is no real need to maintain inter-city roads where there is adequate rail service. The US didn't bother with inter-city highways until the 1950s.

There used to be. Two major lines run through/by Sandpoint (one word). A north/south line and an east/west line, and a hell of a lot of freight passes by Sandpoint day and night. The north/south line runs by a small rail station that has recently been remodeled (it's a historical landmark). So it used to have rail service and I am pretty sure it still does, just at night though. During the day it's strictly freight trains, including a lot of coal and oil trains.

I am arguing for it because IC engines open up choice for people. By limiting everything to rails or mass transit and by restricting how far people can drive you restrict peoples choice of where they can go. Right now, I can hop into my car and make a quick trip into town and be back in a half hour. I can't do that with a train because I would be limited by the train schedule. The trips would take a lot longer and I wouldn't be able to take as much back with me as I might want. It's the convenience that I am arguing for. You would restrict that convenience because you don't like IC engines or cars/trucks it seems. Everything you're arguing for is a restriction of the freedom of movement. You seem to want to restrict everyone to driving to a central location, then parking and using mass transit to do anything in town. Anything but letting people drive into towns and cities to shop or do what they want on their own time and schedule.


So far Safehold doesn't have a globe spanning petrochemical industry, but it will, if only for artillery filler and fuel to fire boilers for ships, trains, and eventually airplanes using IC engines. Cars/trucks are a small step from that and they open up the range of movement for a lot of people, and it doesn't make any sense to ignore the wonderful roads Safehold does have. With only a little work they could easily take automobiles

If Siberia had the population that Russia west of the Urals had, there would be more roads. And a point of note, there are roads all through out Russia. The Russia military would not be restricted to using just the trans-Siberia railroad. Another thing is that Russia has a tendency to wanting to restrict travel (being a monarchy/dictatorship for its existence tends to do that) so that might be a reason they might be inclined to restrict travel to places.

Weird Harold wrote:

Castenea wrote:Harold, all that is necessary for a city is the roads between the city and the markets where farmers sell their produce to wholesalers and where farmers get their goods. Most farmers would be a bit put out though at only having less than all weather roads to get to market, unless they were semi-subsistance.

I'm not suggesting that local roads need to be "less than all weather" just that they don't need to connect cities; connecting cities is the job of railroads and airlines.

Castenea wrote:I also think you are severely underestimating the cost of public transport system you are proposing. Owner operated vehicles only run when the owner feels there is a need, a public transit system must run their vehicles on a set schedule, no matter how many (or few) passengers there are.

Amtrak operates a high-speed, catenary-powered, all electric passenger service along the eastern seaboard. That doesn't put any wear on highways; in fact, it removes several thousand vehicles a day from the highways.

Catenary powered all electric, high speed trains are all over the planet. How an where the electricity for those trains varies almost as much as the locations of those trains do. On a per-passenger or per ton basis, those trains are orders of magnitude more efficient than any other mode of transport.

Electric light rail, monorail, people-movers, et al in the urban environment are also orders of magnitude more economical, even if 12 of 24 trips each day are totally empty.

Sure, an integrated continental mass transit system is going to be expensive but possibly not as expensive as millions of private vehicles AND mass transit for those who can't afford private vehicles.

UUmm.. roads would be required to connect cities, not just railroads or airlines. One reason for an effective road network (thanks for who brought that to my mind, I had forgotten about it) is to facilitate the movement of the military. Trains only cut it so far and modern armies need to be able to move fast. This means a good and reliable road system. It also means a good automobile to carry the troops and equipment (trucks, jeeps and the like) as well as fighting vehicles.(tanks, IFV, gun buggies and the like). Roads also allow the police and security and fire departments to travel to do their duties.

The rail systems are nice and all, but they are extremely limited to where they go. Roads are there year round whether you use them or not and you can drive or walk on them as your choice. A railroad is limited to one place and it requires a lot of work to extend it. For a population that is spread out, trains are only somewhat useful. To use them you have to go to them. With a car, all you need to do is hop in and go.

Even if you have to have cars, there is no reason for the IC engine. I find it difficult to believe that the early 21st century has seen the ultimate in battery development, and that there will be no advances in that technology in the next 300 years. Steam will be adequate for cars until the advent of sufficiently advanced electric vehicles, powered by fusion - assuming you are not using fusion directly - after all Merlin is in fact fusion powered, so small fusion plants are clearly possible. It is the insistence that the IC engine is the only means by which personal transportation can come about is disingenuous at best.

Zakharra wrote:I am arguing for it because IC engines open up choice for people. By limiting everything to rails or mass transit and by restricting how far people can drive you restrict peoples choice of where they can go.

I'm terribly sorry that you would have to actually plan ahead before making a trip to town. Being able to go to town only once or twice a week would be a terrible imposition for you; for a safeholdian, once or twice a week is probably more than four or five times more often than they manage now.

If a safeholdian can afford an electric car with the range to drive to town, then more power to them. I'd rather that everyone be able to go to town every other day -- assuming bad connections and an overnight stay -- than the rich be able to clog the roads whenever they wish.

I'm not against IC engines per se. I'm against what they run on and what they do to air quality when the permanently destroy what they run on. There are better uses for fossil hydrocarbons than burning them.

fallsfromtrees wrote:Even if you have to have cars, there is no reason for the IC engine. I find it difficult to believe that the early 21st century has seen the ultimate in battery development, and that there will be no advances in that technology in the next 300 years. Steam will be adequate for cars until the advent of sufficiently advanced electric vehicles, powered by fusion - assuming you are not using fusion directly - after all Merlin is in fact fusion powered, so small fusion plants are clearly possible. It is the insistence that the IC engine is the only means by which personal transportation can come about is disingenuous at best.

Merlin has the advantage of starting from a higher tech base that had the plans for the advanced stuff and OWL's cave runs off of a geothermal power tap I believe. A fusion reactor would have run out of fuel in the 800 plus year wait, and is far more easily detectable.

Merlin also has access to most of human history and there is a very well documented history, including the plans and schematics for all of the technology to get from the pre-steam to the fusion age. I just think it makes sense to use what has already been done AND (I know people are reaching for the keyboards now) use what was used so successfully before. With all of the techno goodies to avoid the worst effects of the pollution and such. Yes steam engines and vehicles are possible, but there isn't the vast tech or historical base like there is for the IC engine. It would be charting new territory unnecessarily. The IC engine is one of the best ways to get personal transportation into the hands of many people.

It's going to be a long time before Safehold is building fusion power plants or the batteries you think they will be. Likely over a hundred years or more. They need to develop technology to build the machines to build the tools to build the tools and so on before they can get to fusion power and good long lasting and fast charging batteries (that don't wreck the environment just making them). As far as I know it is not Merlin's intention to just open up OWL's data base to Safehold right after the Proscriptions are overthrown and the OBS is neutralized. To the best of my knowledge, Merlin intends to guide Safehold to a more advanced technology one step at a time. Albeit cheating by letting many of the mistakes be avoided. But his intention is, as far as I know, to go through the entire process so the entire planet gets used to innovation and new ideas. This would include, letting IC engines be used for whatever they can be adapted to. If say Siddermark wants to develop the IC engine and the car, Merlin wouldn't stop them. Charis wouldn't stop them. Why would they? There's no reason too.

Weird Harold wrote:

Zakharra wrote:I am arguing for it because IC engines open up choice for people. By limiting everything to rails or mass transit and by restricting how far people can drive you restrict peoples choice of where they can go.

I'm terribly sorry that you would have to actually plan ahead before making a trip to town. Being able to go to town only once or twice a week would be a terrible imposition for you; for a safeholdian, once or twice a week is probably more than four or five times more often than they manage now.

If a safeholdian can afford an electric car with the range to drive to town, then more power to them. I'd rather that everyone be able to go to town every other day -- assuming bad connections and an overnight stay -- than the rich be able to clog the roads whenever they wish.

I'm not against IC engines per se. I'm against what they run on and what they do to air quality when the permanently destroy what they run on. There are better uses for fossil hydrocarbons than burning them.

I do make plans to go to town,w but sometimes I have to make unexpected plans to go to town, or I want to go to my parents or a friend's, or go shopping in 3 different towns/cities. That's not possible with a mass transit system, but it IS possible with a automobile. I do not live in a world that is 120 years ago when most countryfolk might make one trip per week, if that. I'm more modern, with a modern person's outlook on transportation. Which means being able to drive where I want, when I want. Not stuck to a outdated system of travel like you are wanting*.

* to be clear, I am meaning you are wanting country folk to only visit the town/city maybe once or twice a week, using the train. We gave up that idea of personal restrictions on travel over a hundred years ago Weird Harold. Why are you wanting us to return to it and restrict Safehold to that old style of travel restriction just because you have a grudge against the IC engine? You're also forgetting that electric cars need coal and natural gas fired power plants to make the electricity, and many electric cars still puts a lot of vehicles on the roads, which you have stated you don't like, hence your push to mass transit for everyone. Merlin and the industrialists can include the devices that make engines burn as cleanly as possible. The IC engine doesn't have to be as polluting as it has been. Besides, how are they going to develop airplanes (prop and jet) without the IC engine. There isn't anything better out there to propel a plane except IC engines. Steam engines are too heavy by a huge amount, stirlings won't work at all either. And Merlin isn;t going to restrict air travel until their have fusion or battery powered airplanes.

I must laugh that you think that only the rich of Safehold would have cars. Why? Why restrict automobiles only to the rich? The main thrust of Merlin's plans is to get technology into the hands of everyone possible. This means personal vehicles, which gets people used to the idea they can go long distances easily on their own.

I don't know if you mean to, but you are coming across as someone who would much rather restrict peoples freedom of movement and restrict or remove private automobile ownership if possible. Limiting the public to only what the government provides. I thought Merlin was supposed to open up choice for the people of Safehold, not close it off.

[quote=Zakharra]Yes steam engines and vehicles are possible, but there isn't the vast tech or historical base like there is for the IC engine. [/quote]
Lets see now,

The practical steam engine was invented in 1710 - Newcomen, and steam engines were in fairly extensive use into the mid 1950's - approximately 240 years, during which development was on going, but assume development stopped in 1910. so that's 200 years of active development. The gasoline engine was invented in 1876 or thereabouts, and really hasn't changed much since 2000 or even earlier. That's about 125 years of development. So it appears that the vast historical base is in favor of the steam engine.

The major reason for the primacy of the gas engine was Standard Oil pushing for a replacement product for the kerosene that was being phased out for lighting. Gasoline was that product. Steam wasn't acceptable because you could burn anything to raise steam, you didn't have to use Standard Oil's gasoline. In the 1910's the Stanley Steamer was one of the premiere vehicles on the road. They in fact were subjected to a vicious smear campaign that eventually drove the company out of business.

The destruction of mass transit (at least in the Los Angeles area) can be laid at the feet of Firestone, standard Oil, and General Motors. Those 3 bought up the trolley lines in LA post World War II, and shut them down to encourage the use of automobiles. I know - sounds like the story line from Who Framed Roger Rabbit?. The movie was based on an actual case. The three companies were eventually convicted of an antitrust violation for their actions, but unfortunately, were only fined minimally. It has since cost the citizens of California billions to replace the light rail system they destroyed.

I think that given that things like flash boilers are going to be available much sooner, that steam is in fact going to replace the IC engine as the primary motive power for personal transportation. Remember also that the primary innovators in this brave new world are going to have access to OWL's history files, and will initially be able to use things like flash boilers, that steam will gain such an edge that the IC engine will be seen as an oddity, and the same cultural biases that led to the IC engine becoming preeminent in our world will lead to stem becoming preeminent on Safehold.

Zakharra wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:I'm not against IC engines per se. I'm against what they run on and what they do to air quality when the permanently destroy what they run on. There are better uses for fossil hydrocarbons than burning them.

You're also forgetting that electric cars need coal and natural gas fired power plants to make the electricity, ...

No, I'm NOT forgetting that the easiest and fastest way to generate electricity when moving from Steam Power to Electric Power is Steam Powered Generation. I'm also NOT ignoring -- and have stated several times -- that there are other ways to generate electricity that don't burn fossil fuels. Some of them are even suitable for remote farmsteads beyond the reach of the Grid, like "Low Head Hydroelectric" systems, or small scale wind generators.

Zakharra wrote:...and many electric cars still puts a lot of vehicles on the roads, which you have stated you don't like, hence your push to mass transit for everyone.

It isn't the number of vehicles, it is the amount of poison massed ICEs produce when burning fossil fuels.

Electric vehicles in an urban environment are only a problem for local road design/maintenance. Most don't have the range for inter-city travel. Even if they can be powered directly from the grid private electric cars aren't going to be a big problem. Especially if there is an efficient mass-transit system to compete with them.

Zakharra wrote:It's going to be a long time before Safehold is building fusion power plants or the batteries you think they will be. Likely over a hundred years or more. They need to develop technology to build the machines to build the tools to build the tools and so on before they can get to fusion power and good long lasting and fast charging batteries (that don't wreck the environment just making them). As far as I know it is not Merlin's intention to just open up OWL's data base to Safehold right after the Proscriptions are overthrown and the OBS is neutralized. To the best of my knowledge, Merlin intends to guide Safehold to a more advanced technology one step at a time. Albeit cheating by letting many of the mistakes be avoided. But his intention is, as far as I know, to go through the entire process so the entire planet gets used to innovation and new ideas. This would include, letting IC engines be used for whatever they can be adapted to. If say Siddermark wants to develop the IC engine and the car, Merlin wouldn't stop them. Charis wouldn't stop them. Why would they? There's no reason too.

I think that it is not going to be as long as you are postulating. Merlin has not been above steering development in the directions he thinks necessary. What makes you think he is going to stop now? As soon as the proscriptions are lifted, electricity is going to blossom across the entire planet, for much the same reason the Charis is going to win the war - sections of the planet that don't electrify will fall hopelessly behind the sections that do. Yes there will be religious holdouts, but they are going to be swept away, if only by dying out as the younger generation adopts the new methods. Even in Harchong, the bureaucrats will get on board, as if they don't their graft is going to get cut drastically, and there is textev that South Harchong is going to be splitting off from North Harchong, probably in the near future (HFQ). Once electricity is out there, Howsmyn is going to start looking for the most efficient ways of producing it, and will rapidly come to the conclusion he needs to get to fusion power as soon as possible. No more that one generation later.

As soon as the Truth is revealed, there is no need for internal combustion engines--far better energy sources will become available. If the Truth is revealed about the time of the Angelic Return, that's less than 20 years. I don't think the Proscriptions will be overturned until then. I think there is no need for internal combustion engines during that interval.

SWM wrote:As soon as the Truth is revealed, there is no need for internal combustion engines--far better energy sources will become available. If the Truth is revealed about the time of the Angelic Return, that's less than 20 years. I don't think the Proscriptions will be overturned until then. I think there is no need for internal combustion engines during that interval.

I was thinking the same thing. In the upcoming 20 years there will be time enough to more fully develop steam. Once the proscriptions are lifted, getting Safehold to use electricity is a much better option. Within one generation of the Truth being revealed, a majority of the population will be wired for with direct data interface. Within 2 generations, that percentage will approach 100%. With the entire library of human creation at their fingertips, those wired generations will skip past IC with nary a blink.

Weird Harold wrote:

Castenea wrote:Harold, all that is necessary for a city is the roads between the city and the markets where farmers sell their produce to wholesalers and where farmers get their goods. Most farmers would be a bit put out though at only having less than all weather roads to get to market, unless they were semi-subsistance.

I'm not suggesting that local roads need to be "less than all weather" just that they don't need to connect cities; connecting cities is the job of railroads and airlines.

Castenea wrote:I also think you are severely underestimating the cost of public transport system you are proposing. Owner operated vehicles only run when the owner feels there is a need, a public transit system must run their vehicles on a set schedule, no matter how many (or few) passengers there are.

Amtrak operates a high-speed, catenary-powered, all electric passenger service along the eastern seaboard. That doesn't put any wear on highways; in fact, it removes several thousand vehicles a day from the highways.

Catenary powered all electric, high speed trains are all over the planet. How an where the electricity for those trains varies almost as much as the locations of those trains do. On a per-passenger or per ton basis, those trains are orders of magnitude more efficient than any other mode of transport.

Electric light rail, monorail, people-movers, et al in the urban environment are also orders of magnitude more economical, even if 12 of 24 trips each day are totally empty.

Sure, an integrated continental mass transit system is going to be expensive but possibly not as expensive as millions of private vehicles AND mass transit for those who can't afford private vehicles.

Harold: One should compare NYC to LA to see the effects of commuting to work.