Advanced tech without electricity/internal combustion?

In line with this debate, there was a "free roads" movement in England and later in the US over whether roads should be in public or private hands. For the purposes of developing more trade, industry, and freedom of travel free ("i.e., publicly funded") roads won out over time for all the obvious reasons we see today.

AirTech wrote:

n7axw wrote:
Whoa, there guy... Roads between towns and cities predate the automobile, going all the way back to stagecoaches. Ralroads have never been so widespread as to be practical for everybody. In fact in this country you'll notice that most of the trunk lines are moving east to west. North to south not so much.

What came in with the fifties was the freeway system.

Don

And buses pre-date the internal combustion engine by a good century. They started up in England as oversize coaches with running round the capitol (all of them privately owned) and post coaches (post-chaise) running to major ports.
Private companies will build rail systems if they see money in it, however the subsidies involved in building and maintaining roads render competition with road freight difficult. Prior to this the roads were really rough going, even in developed areas, and serious money had to be spent to build the highway system we have now in most developed countries - several orders of magnitude more expensive than putting in railway lines with the same capacity.
The road freight subsidy started with the need for military transport before the second world war, the first world war was largely fought by rail, the second by rail and road and the cold war by road transport.
As for delivering goods to large shops, a lot of large cities like London and Chicago had underground narrow gauge freight railways for this purpose (as the roads were just too crowded with people and horses for efficient transport).

Wow, what an interesting overnight discussion. So far most of the discussion has been about personal use automobiles for those in urban areas and how poorly served rural areas are by public transport in the US. However, one thing that has not been touched upon is crop transportation in Charis. So far as I can recall, the author has not discussed this in any of the books, beyond a passing mention that crop plantings had doubled in response to the amount of produce that had be shipped to Siddermark. However, one would presume that people do get their crops to market somehow, whether it is farm owned wagons and draft dragons, hired versions of the same or agricultural distribution companies sending their wagons to collect the produce from the farm. Surely if it is either of the first two, farmers will want to upgrade their transport system so that they do not have to feed draft dragons their ton or 2 of food daily. And just as surely they will want a better method of plowing their fields than a hired draft dragon, should the 3rd option be in play. Not to mention that it is a lot easier to go shopping in town if you have a truck - or even a tractor drawn wagon.

I suppose that it is possible that the farm supports horses rather than dragons, but AFAIK there is no textev either way. I also suppose that the farmer could hitch up the wife, mother and mother in law as is sometimes done in India, but I hope not.

n7axw wrote:
Whoa, there guy... Roads between towns and cities predate the automobile, going all the way back to stagecoaches. Ralroads have never been so widespread as to be practical for everybody. In fact in this country you'll notice that most of the trunk lines are moving east to west. North to south not so much.

What came in with the fifties was the freeway system.

Don

Don: I believe you mean the US Interstate system. Freeways by definition are limited or controlled access highways.
The Roman Empire expressway system was borrowed from with the original post roads for inter-colony communications and transporting supplies from and to the port cities. Roads like the National Road, Colombia Turnpike, Harrisburg Expressway, Lincoln Highway, and Pennsylvania turnkpike developed along with the Intracoastal Waterway and Canal System. Then the state route numbering system was implemented in 1925-1926. State routes are not federal highways, but do receive road improvement funding from the fed. Major expressways are still developed locally and given names or local numbers.

Weird Harold wrote:

n7axw wrote:What came in with the fifties was the freeway system.

Don

You do know why Ike pushed through the Interstate Highway funding?

Whether there were any transcontinental highways before WWII is seriously debatable; The Lincoln Highway, for example was a "transcontinental highway" in name only.

I'm old enough to remember the state of inter-city highways before freeways, although not old enough to remember when they simply didn't exist in places; when "you can't get there from here" was more than a joke.

Safehold at least has a true road network and an extensive canal system, as a starting point. I'm not sure they're up to "Around the World in Eighty Days" just yet, but Steamships and Railroads will soon make that possible.

I wasn't arguing for transcontinental highways. I merely said there was roads between towns and cities, something you seemed to me to be denying although in all probability you didn't mean it quite the way I took it on first flush...

I'm of the impression I'm a bit older than you at 69. I remember those two laners quite well. Not as nice or as safe as the interstates, but they did serve.

I would see the canal system on Safehold serving as a primary network for a long time to come.

IIRC, Ike was inspired by Germany's autobahn which was developed in the 30s with rapid deployment of troops and military assets on mind. I think Ike was motivated by that same set of concerns, at least in part.

Don

TN4994 wrote:

n7axw wrote:
Whoa, there guy... Roads between towns and cities predate the automobile, going all the way back to stagecoaches. Ralroads have never been so widespread as to be practical for everybody. In fact in this country you'll notice that most of the trunk lines are moving east to west. North to south not so much.

What came in with the fifties was the freeway system.

Don

Don: I believe you mean the US Interstate system. Freeways by definition are limited or controlled access highways.
The Roman Empire expressway system was borrowed from with the original post roads for inter-colony communications and transporting supplies from and to the port cities. Roads like the National Road, Colombia Turnpike, Harrisburg Expressway, Lincoln Highway, and Pennsylvania turnkpike developed along with the Intracoastal Waterway and Canal System. Then the state route numbering system was implemented in 1925-1926. State routes are not federal highways, but do receive road improvement funding from the fed. Major expressways are still developed locally and given names or local numbers.

I was speaking in common midwest speak in which the terms are normally interchangeable. I am aware of your distinction and was speaking mostly of the interstate system.

Don

Keith_w wrote:Wow, what an interesting overnight discussion. So far most of the discussion has been about personal use automobiles for those in urban areas and how poorly served rural areas are by public transport in the US. However, one thing that has not been touched upon is crop transportation in Charis. So far as I can recall, the author has not discussed this in any of the books, beyond a passing mention that crop plantings had doubled in response to the amount of produce that had be shipped to Siddermark. However, one would presume that people do get their crops to market somehow, whether it is farm owned wagons and draft dragons, hired versions of the same or agricultural distribution companies sending their wagons to collect the produce from the farm. Surely if it is either of the first two, farmers will want to upgrade their transport system so that they do not have to feed draft dragons their ton or 2 of food daily. And just as surely they will want a better method of plowing their fields than a hired draft dragon, should the 3rd option be in play. Not to mention that it is a lot easier to go shopping in town if you have a truck - or even a tractor drawn wagon.

I suppose that it is possible that the farm supports horses rather than dragons, but AFAIK there is no textev either way. I also suppose that the farmer could hitch up the wife, mother and mother in law as is sometimes done in India, but I hope not.

I agree the produce to market problem is the main concern.

But Safehold has a situation much different than ours. Good roads and canals, while having both a short small burdens hauler (horses) and one for bigger burdens (dragons). In this situation, about all needs are covered adequately up to the nearest town or embarkment on canals. There is no pressing needs for an automobile at this level.

Suburbs housing is in fact a consequence of the automobile availability not a pressure to have them. The common distance between old towns in Europe is a day walk at most. and there was no suburb between them, just farm villages.

Now, you need something from town to town, and especially toward the big cities. This is more adequately covered by a railroad network, and while this may seems damnly communist to US citizens, on Safehold we have textev that there is duties to maintain and improve canals which could extended easily to railroad.

The interstate highway system is perhaps the most ambitious "public works" project ever built, and , like most government projects it is actually a total failure for what it was actually designed to do.

To explain.

When Ike was a young Colonel, he tried to organize a cross country military convoy from the East to West coasts of the United States. It took about two months to cross the nation, due to the horrible state of the roads. Later, during WWII, he was struck by how the Wehrmacht moved forces quickly via the autobahn system. Although he may not have been aware of this, in Canada, Defence Plan #1 had been developed in the 1920's to block potential American invaders by a series of cross border raids to demolish critical road and rail bridges. (The corresponding US war plans in that time period were War plan Red; against the British empire, and War plan Crimson, which was a sub plan directed at Canada). One could hardly fail to see the critical importance of the roads and rails for that...

These experiences convinced him that a national military road system was needed for America, and so the Dwight D. Eisenhower National System of Interstate and Defense Highways was born. Of course, by the time construction was well underway, America was in the grip of the Cold War, and the emphasis was to project forces outwards via ships, aircraft and eventually missiles. Fortunately, the Interstate was a dual purpose road system, and commercial transportation could make use of it, much like the Roman roads 2000 years before.

Now if there was some reason the Interstate was not a dual purpose construction or otherwise useful for civilian traffic, it would have been the biggest white elephant in history. High speed roads like the various turnpikes and other toll roads served the same functions, but since they had to be built where there was demand (so owners could get their investments back), the tollpikes were generally cheaper and more in tune to where people wanted to go. Devolving into huge port projects (like California's proposed high speed rail project, which has ballooned to $100 billion even though not one train has yet run on it) is much harder when it is a private investment at stake.

n7axw wrote:I wasn't arguing for transcontinental highways. I merely said there was roads between towns and cities, something you seemed to me to be denying although in all probability you didn't mean it quite the way I took it on first flush...

On Safehold, there are good roads between cities and canals for heavy goods. In OTL, roads between cities didn't deserve the name for the most part until WWII and after. "Transcontinental Highways" were hopeful itineraries that used local roads and trails from town-to-town -- mostly trails west of the Mississippi. Those local "roads" between towns, didn't, and couldn't, support "personal transport" on anything like the scale of modern highways.

n7axw wrote:IIRC, Ike was inspired by Germany's autobahn which was developed in the 30s with rapid deployment of troops and military assets on mind. I think Ike was motivated by that same set of concerns, at least in part.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1919_Motor ... rps_convoy

Ike was inspired by the problems encountered in 1919 as compared to the Autobahn. The US Interstate Highway system is a military road network first and foremost; although civilian users often forget that.

Cities need good local roads to enable farm goods to be brought to market. Where cities are close together, those local roads often intersect those of neighboring towns. Where cities are more distant, and decent rail or other mass transit between towns, there is no real need to extend local roads into inter-city routes.

In Safehold's case, there is no need to upgrade inter-city roads to handle "universal personal transport" if rail or bus service is instituted in a reasonable efficient manner. Safeholdians won't miss what they've never had and marvel at the wonder of fast, clean, efficient travel.

Weird Harold wrote:Cities need good local roads to enable farm goods to be brought to market. Where cities are close together, those local roads often intersect those of neighboring towns. Where cities are more distant, and decent rail or other mass transit between towns, there is no real need to extend local roads into inter-city routes.

In Safehold's case, there is no need to upgrade inter-city roads to handle "universal personal transport" if rail or bus service is instituted in a reasonable efficient manner. Safeholdians won't miss what they've never had and marvel at the wonder of fast, clean, efficient travel.

Harold, all that is necessary for a city is the roads between the city and the markets where farmers sell their produce to wholesalers and where farmers get their goods. Most farmers would be a bit put out though at only having less than all weather roads to get to market, unless they were semi-subsistance.

Are high quality blacktopped roads over built in the US today, arguably yes. However even large sedans are milder on roads than buses. With standard class eight tires (11R22.5) a two axle (six tires) can be up to 33,000 lbs. I also think you are severely underestimating the cost of public transport system you are proposing. Owner operated vehicles only run when the owner feels there is a need, a public transit system must run their vehicles on a set schedule, no matter how many (or few) passengers there are.

Castenea wrote:Harold, all that is necessary for a city is the roads between the city and the markets where farmers sell their produce to wholesalers and where farmers get their goods. Most farmers would be a bit put out though at only having less than all weather roads to get to market, unless they were semi-subsistance.

I'm not suggesting that local roads need to be "less than all weather" just that they don't need to connect cities; connecting cities is the job of railroads and airlines.

Castenea wrote:I also think you are severely underestimating the cost of public transport system you are proposing. Owner operated vehicles only run when the owner feels there is a need, a public transit system must run their vehicles on a set schedule, no matter how many (or few) passengers there are.

Amtrak operates a high-speed, catenary-powered, all electric passenger service along the eastern seaboard. That doesn't put any wear on highways; in fact, it removes several thousand vehicles a day from the highways.

Catenary powered all electric, high speed trains are all over the planet. How an where the electricity for those trains varies almost as much as the locations of those trains do. On a per-passenger or per ton basis, those trains are orders of magnitude more efficient than any other mode of transport.

Electric light rail, monorail, people-movers, et al in the urban environment are also orders of magnitude more economical, even if 12 of 24 trips each day are totally empty.

Sure, an integrated continental mass transit system is going to be expensive but possibly not as expensive as millions of private vehicles AND mass transit for those who can't afford private vehicles.