Draft dragons - a question

TN4994 wrote:Anyone remember the mech-spider in the movie "Wild, Wild West."

Not if I can possibly avoid remembering anything about that horrible film

JeffEngel wrote:

Graydon wrote:There are all sorts of terrestrial hexapods; insects. So we know six legs is an easy walking pattern because you can always have a tripod of legs that aren't moving.

Left front and rear, right middle, or right front and rear, left middle; move them alternately, you're never unbalanced. This made six legs popular with early mechanical walker researchers because there was a control problem they didn't have to solve. If you can solve the control problem, four is more interesting because lighter, cheaper, etc. (Though the third pair of legs and implied length might be where dragons get the room to store their extra-long and thus efficient guts.)

We don't know if dragons walk like that, or pace (all left forward, all right forward) or do something disturbing like front feet forward, middle feet forward, back feet forward in a galumphing gait. A gait like that would probably affect harness design.

Thanks, this is plenty informative - although it does raise a bunch of questions.

Do you suppose it makes much difference that the draft dragons are (1) warm-blooded (I'm pretty sure they are, anyway), (2) so very much larger and bulkier than insects, and (3) endoskeletal?

It makes all kinds of difference to all kinds of things, but not to the stability and utility of the three-down-three-moving hexapod walking pattern unless dragons are so lightly built that they can't stand on three legs.

Since everything we know about Safehold's native terrestrial life indicates that it's energetic and vigorous and metabolically efficient, I think it's much more likely that dragons can achieve some sort of suspended-phase gallop than that they've got fragile legs.

JeffEngel wrote:The bulk may mean that while balance could mean maintained with three legs on the ground, it may be dangerous or exhausting to walk with less than 4 or 5 grounded at a time. (For all I know - presumably comparing gaits of tiny mammals and huge ones could suggest an answer. I'm just betting I can find out from one of you more easily and soundly than researching it myself.)

Well, mammals aren't a lot of help because mammals spent about a 120 million years being small, so even very large mammals retain the constraints of having had small ancestors (no lumbar ribs, for example, or only two sets of teeth per lifetime) and we're, as a clade, really conservative about gait; even seals do something that's effectively a gallop in terms of breathing co-ordination, for example.

(Humans are indescribably weird when it comes to gait and anatomy; we're cursorial plantigrade graviportal obligate bipeds with gait and respiration decoupled, which is really really strange. A dog or a horse or a cat breathes as a function of its gait, taking advantage of back flex to help with lung inflation, anything not us that runs long distances is digitigrade (up on its toes) and not graviportal (having columnar legs with the centre of mass over the knees) from antelope through ostriches.)

We don't even know if dragons have an erect (legs under the body) stance; for all we know they could sprawl like lizards and proceed forward in a terrible flailing rush. Or the front two pairs of legs could be relatively delicate and the rearmost pair massive, we have no idea.

So while it's very likely dragons can walk in a sequential pattern of steps with only one foot moved at a time if they really want to -- anything that heavy has to hate mushy ground and have nervous cautions about being asked to step on anything wet -- it's not all that likely as a travelling gait because it'd be slow. Quadrupeds seem to walk by offset sides -- left front, right rear, then right front, left rear -- unless moving really slowly as when grazing. Dragons could do the hexapodal equivalent of that very naturally. (No matter how drunk they were, I doubt anyone on Safehold has ever taken up dragon tipping.)

Graydon wrote:Well, mammals aren't a lot of help because mammals spent about a 120 million years being small, so even very large mammals retain the constraints of having had small ancestors (no lumbar ribs, for example, or only two sets of teeth per lifetime) and we're, as a clade, really conservative about gait; even seals do something that's effectively a gallop in terms of breathing co-ordination, for example.

Do you suppose Safehold's hexapods (sexapeds?) are comparably conservative? (Granted, it's a guess I suspect I'm inviting anyone to pull almost entirely out their posterior.) In particular, very much the same gaits regardless of size and lifestyle?

I went back to the Caleb-meets-Merlin scene in OAR for hints about gait from the charging slash lizard. There's not much there, other than the reminder that they certainly are "vigorous". But if we're going to suppose that draft dragons move like slash lizards, only more carefully, more slowly, and in hungry pursuit of grass instead of Charisian princes, then there's reason to suppose they've got a potentially fast gait like three-up, three-down. The slash lizard's legs being described as "churning", while it is in a rush, does suggest that they don't leap much, and if they don't, draft dragons certainly wouldn't - even before you hook them up to a load. (The mind boggles at the notion of a hopping draft animal.)

The scene doesn't tell anything about the use, or neglect, of the tail while in motion. I'm going to figure that draft dragons at least don't have long tails like alligators, say, else they'd be complicated as draft animals. For that matter, I don't recall much of anything about Safehold tails; I've pictured slash lizards like six-legged, possibly furry, lean and fast alligators on land, but either the tail isn't present, isn't much, or marks the slash lizard as not as much like the draft dragon as most any mammal is like any other.

(Humans are indescribably weird when it comes to gait and anatomy; we're cursorial plantigrade graviportal obligate bipeds with gait and respiration decoupled, which is really really strange. A dog or a horse or a cat breathes as a function of its gait, taking advantage of back flex to help with lung inflation, anything not us that runs long distances is digitigrade (up on its toes) and not graviportal (having columnar legs with the centre of mass over the knees) from antelope through ostriches.)

We're freaks and proud! I was wondering about kangaroos, but their higher speed locomotion is all hopping, and their slower locomotion involves foreleg/foreleg/tail-down, hind-legs up, and alternate.

We don't even know if dragons have an erect (legs under the body) stance; for all we know they could sprawl like lizards and proceed forward in a terrible flailing rush. Or the front two pairs of legs could be relatively delicate and the rearmost pair massive, we have no idea.

That last one seems remarkably enough it would have come up though. The slash lizard does sound like it's got a lizard sprawl going on. It may be informative if we have references anywhere to dragons looming over anything (suggests legs beneath), eating things off the ground (like a giraffe, at one extreme; also suggests legs beneath), or anything about there being a remarkable spread from side to side as opposed to top to bottom (suggests sprawl).

Incidentally - I don't recall any mention of Safehold native species with smaller, higher forelimbs standing on the rear four, like Starfire Gorm. Anyone else?

So while it's very likely dragons can walk in a sequential pattern of steps with only one foot moved at a time if they really want to -- anything that heavy has to hate mushy ground and have nervous cautions about being asked to step on anything wet -- it's not all that likely as a travelling gait because it'd be slow. Quadrupeds seem to walk by offset sides -- left front, right rear, then right front, left rear -- unless moving really slowly as when grazing. Dragons could do the hexapodal equivalent of that very naturally. (No matter how drunk they were, I doubt anyone on Safehold has ever taken up dragon tipping.)

I... don't think that they would have lasted long enough afterward to reproduce, at least. That's something.

Although! If the notion even occurred to people, it would suggest legs-beneath rather than legs-beside - the center of gravity would be entirely too low.

JeffEngel wrote:The scene doesn't tell anything about the use, or neglect, of the tail while in motion. I'm going to figure that draft dragons at least don't have long tails like alligators, say, else they'd be complicated as draft animals. For that matter, I don't recall much of anything about Safehold tails; I've pictured slash lizards like six-legged, possibly furry, lean and fast alligators on land, but either the tail isn't present, isn't much, or marks the slash lizard as not as much like the draft dragon as most any mammal is like any other.

Slash lizards' tails are relatively short, but they definitely have them -

"A fully mature mountain slash lizard could run to as much as fourteen feet in length, of which no more than four feet would be tail."

-- OAR, "August, Year of God 890" (Cayleb's slash lizard hunt)

cralkhi wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:The scene doesn't tell anything about the use, or neglect, of the tail while in motion. I'm going to figure that draft dragons at least don't have long tails like alligators, say, else they'd be complicated as draft animals. For that matter, I don't recall much of anything about Safehold tails; I've pictured slash lizards like six-legged, possibly furry, lean and fast alligators on land, but either the tail isn't present, isn't much, or marks the slash lizard as not as much like the draft dragon as most any mammal is like any other.

Slash lizards' tails are relatively short, but they definitely have them -

"A fully mature mountain slash lizard could run to as much as fourteen feet in length, of which no more than four feet would be tail."

-- OAR, "August, Year of God 890" (Cayleb's slash lizard hunt)

The question is do, Draft dragons have thick muscular tails like Alligators, or thin tails (possibly docked) like Cats?

Castenea wrote:The question is do, Draft dragons have thick muscular tails like Alligators, or thin tails (possibly docked) like Cats?

The tail is presumably there to counterbalance the head, otherwise the center of gravity (aka, bulk the lizard's/dragon's weight) wouldn't be evenly distributed amount all six legs but would be putting extra work on the forward pairs while the hind pair of legs would be getting relatively weight, which I imagine would have all kinds of problems.

So I'm guessing "short and muscular", although there's plenty of real life quadrupeds on Earth who have large heads but practically vestigial or weightless tails: elephants, horses, deer, almost any mammal now that I think of it.

OTOH, Safeholdian fauna have reptilian names, and Earth reptiles tend to have more massive tails compared to mammals.

So do dragon breeders dock their tails?

evilauthor wrote:

Castenea wrote:The question is do, Draft dragons have thick muscular tails like Alligators, or thin tails (possibly docked) like Cats?

The tail is presumably there to counterbalance the head, otherwise the center of gravity (aka, bulk the lizard's/dragon's weight) wouldn't be evenly distributed amount all six legs but would be putting extra work on the forward pairs while the hind pair of legs would be getting relatively weight, which I imagine would have all kinds of problems.

So I'm guessing "short and muscular", although there's plenty of real life quadrupeds on Earth who have large heads but practically vestigial or weightless tails: elephants, horses, deer, almost any mammal now that I think of it.

OTOH, Safeholdian fauna have reptilian names, and Earth reptiles tend to have more massive tails compared to mammals.

That last I think is helped by the reptile's being close to the ground (supporting weight and length in the tail is easier/less relevant), and the legs being off to the side (gives the tail more potential use in locomotion, for some at least - though the more flexible spine is a factor there too).

Those minimally-tailed mammals do have going for them that they tend to keep their heads more upright than thrust forward, and that their heads (thinking elephants particularly here) are at the ends of very short necks. The elephant does have a fair bit of mass behind the centers of the read feet, too, even if not much of that is a distinct tail.

Graydon wrote:snip
Quadrupeds seem to walk by offset sides -- left front, right rear, then right front, left rear -- unless moving really slowly as when grazing. Dragons could do the hexapodal equivalent of that very naturally. (No matter how drunk they were, I doubt anyone on Safehold has ever taken up dragon tipping.)

There is one quadraped that doesn't. The camel walks left front and back, right front and back, which gives it a very rocking motion that is quite disturbing if you are riding one. One the the reasons it was referred to as the "ship of the desert".

Wow, I was not expecting to start a conversation about gaits and such, though, in hindsight, it makes sense.

I had basically imagined the bodies of Draft Dragons to be a lot like those of elephants, except with an extra set of hips. Looking at the sauropods, which in many cases were more massive than draft dragons have been describes as being, they all had their legs underneath them in walking posture.

They also had, for the most part, very long necks and very long tails, which is very clearly different from elephants. But all that weight is still supported by columnar legs, not with outflung legs like crocodiles and most small reptiles.

I think that it's very likely that slash lizards could be very low slung, with outflung legs. Crocodiles and Alligators are faster than humans in a sprint, and reach the size of Slash lizards. Something a lot like them, but with an extra set of legs for more rapid acceleration could be blindingly fast for it's size.

Dragons though, when you start getting into weights in the tons, I think you pretty much have to get the legs fully under the body of you stay on land. The evolutionary baggage required to have the bone mass to carry a multiton body with outflung legs would be extreme. I am fairly confident Darwin would object.

I suppose it's possible that the dragons might move with outflung legs and NOT carry their bodies all the time. Imagine a massive body with undulating rib muscle motion like a snake in addition to leg locomotion. In essence, snake-with-legs locomotion.

I'm boggling in my head a little at this thought though. I could imagine it being possible, as it would allow tremendous mass, and the ability to swim, navigate difficult terrain and dig. It would probably require either near-prehensile forelimbs or a very agile and long neck to allow it to reach sufficient vegetation to feed itself. Or, perhaps, a very low neck and head, to allow the mouth to be at ground level, like a lawnmower.

The original curiosity about the harness a Draft dragon would use is now eclipsed by what a Dragon even looks like.

I'm now curious if DW has considered what Draft dragons look like, or if they are just giant hauling beasts that need no description.