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Anybody know anything about Solar or Geothermal energy?

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Re: Anybody know anything about Solar or Geothermal energy?
Post by n7axw   » Thu Dec 18, 2014 7:05 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
Aegis99 wrote:I would suspect the answer to the first question is never, as your question implies that solar is a "natural" progression of energy source after fossil fuels.


Actually, I expect Safehold to leap over internal comustion engines to electrics with Hydro, Wind, Solar, and geothermal augmenting coal-fired steam-turbine generation -- followed by nuclear steam turbine generators. There are better (and recyclable) uses for fossil fuels than burning them.


Hi Harold,

We'll see, but I doubt it. Internal combustion engines are coming. If I'm wrong, I will buy you a drink...at the virtual bar, of course! :lol:

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Anybody know anything about Solar or Geothermal energy?
Post by evilauthor   » Fri Dec 19, 2014 3:38 am

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Interesting fact:

I was rereading OAR today, and it's mentioned that Nimue's cave is powered by a geothermal tap.

Nimue's cave (the main cavern at least) is also located just above sea level despite being under 12 km of mountain.
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Re: Anybody know anything about Solar or Geothermal energy?
Post by Zakharra   » Fri Dec 19, 2014 12:13 pm

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Aegis99 wrote:I would suspect the answer to the first question is never, as your question implies that solar is a "natural" progression of energy source after fossil fuels.


n7axw wrote:
Weird Harold wrote:
Actually, I expect Safehold to leap over internal comustion engines to electrics with Hydro, Wind, Solar, and geothermal augmenting coal-fired steam-turbine generation -- followed by nuclear steam turbine generators. There are better (and recyclable) uses for fossil fuels than burning them.


Hi Harold,

We'll see, but I doubt it. Internal combustion engines are coming. If I'm wrong, I will buy you a drink...at the virtual bar, of course! :lol:

Don



IC engines have to come, if only to make airplanes and for automobiles a reality. They are a logical step from steam to allowing for the common person to have access to their own vehicles, and much easier travel and trade.
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Re: Anybody know anything about Solar or Geothermal energy?
Post by SWM   » Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:19 pm

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Zakharra wrote: IC engines have to come, if only to make airplanes and for automobiles a reality. They are a logical step from steam to allowing for the common person to have access to their own vehicles, and much easier travel and trade.

That makes an assumption that, IMHO, is not warranted. A couple assumptions, actually. First, you are assuming that IC engines will be approved, at least in Charis, despite the fuzzy line they cross in the Proscriptions. Some have argued that this is just like steam, but I'm still not convinced that the people of Safehold would see it that way.

Second, it assumes that it will be necessary to create IC-powered vehicles and aircraft before the Truth is revealed and the Proscriptions are eliminated. If the Truth is revealed, then Safehold could skip right over IC engines to other possibilities. I feel fairly certain that the Truth will come out just after the Angelic Return. I don't think it will become necessary to develop IC engines between now and then.
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Re: Anybody know anything about Solar or Geothermal energy?
Post by TN4994   » Fri Dec 19, 2014 6:04 pm

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SWM wrote:
Zakharra wrote: IC engines have to come, if only to make airplanes and for automobiles a reality. They are a logical step from steam to allowing for the common person to have access to their own vehicles, and much easier travel and trade.

That makes an assumption that, IMHO, is not warranted. A couple assumptions, actually. First, you are assuming that IC engines will be approved, at least in Charis, despite the fuzzy line they cross in the Proscriptions. Some have argued that this is just like steam, but I'm still not convinced that the people of Safehold would see it that way.

Second, it assumes that it will be necessary to create IC-powered vehicles and aircraft before the Truth is revealed and the Proscriptions are eliminated. If the Truth is revealed, then Safehold could skip right over IC engines to other possibilities. I feel fairly certain that the Truth will come out just after the Angelic Return. I don't think it will become necessary to develop IC engines between now and then.

Petrol engines require spark plugs. Get that little bit of
Lightning pass the inquisition and you're in. :twisted:
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Re: Anybody know anything about Solar or Geothermal energy?
Post by Weird Harold   » Fri Dec 19, 2014 6:35 pm

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Zakharra wrote: IC engines have to come, if only to make airplanes and for automobiles a reality. They are a logical step from steam to allowing for the common person to have access to their own vehicles, and much easier travel and trade.


For aircraft, Jets or turboprop. No need for (reciprocating) IC engines. Steam is even possible as are lighter-than-air alternatives.

For personal automobiles: why? Personal transport is a fairly recent innovation, and arguably an artifact of the auto industry's interference in profitable light-rail systems to increase sales of busses.

For the few cases where individual transport is truly needed or desirable: Steam while the Proscriptions are still in effect and electric after.

Internal Combustion engines are poison spewing polluters that Safehold has a chance to avoid, thanks to Merlin and OWL. Coal fired Steam and the associated pollution created by coal mining aren't perfect solutions, but can fill most of Safehold's power needs until the Proscriptions can be voided and cleaner options become viable.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: Anybody know anything about Solar or Geothermal energy?
Post by doug941   » Fri Dec 19, 2014 6:49 pm

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Actually, I expect Safehold to leap over internal comustion engines to electrics with Hydro, Wind, Solar, and geothermal augmenting coal-fired steam-turbine generation -- followed by nuclear steam turbine generators. There are better (and recyclable) uses for fossil fuels than burning them.[/quote]

Hi Harold,

We'll see, but I doubt it. Internal combustion engines are coming. If I'm wrong, I will buy you a drink...at the virtual bar, of course! :lol:

Don[/quote]


IC engines have to come, if only to make airplanes and for automobiles a reality. They are a logical step from steam to allowing for the common person to have access to their own vehicles, and much easier travel and trade.[/quote]

IC for aircraft yes, but ground vehicles could be prototyped within the year or sooner. Terran history shows that steam tractors, steam autos and steam trucks were quite useful. Businesses in Great Britain were still using steam lorries into the 1950s. IC won out in the long term for several reasons: speed, ease of use and long start-up times for steam.
Weird Harold Jets are still a form of IC engine, they just don't have pistons
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Re: Anybody know anything about Solar or Geothermal energy?
Post by Castenea   » Fri Dec 19, 2014 7:44 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
For personal automobiles: why? Personal transport is a fairly recent innovation, and arguably an artifact of the auto industry's interference in profitable light-rail systems to increase sales of busses.

For the few cases where individual transport is truly needed or desirable: Steam while the Proscriptions are still in effect and electric after.

I can see you actually live inside city limits. For those who do not live inside high density urban areas, personal transport is a necessity as the economics of mass transit simply do not work. Extreme example: I believe Monroe County WV still does not have a single traffic light. Even in Europe where the consortium of GM, Firestone and Exxon did not operate has significant demand for personal cars.

Steam will work for as long as the proscriptions are in effect, but electric has problems with range and recharge time. Electric vehicles will be a niche item as long as ranges on full charge are under 100 mi, and recharge times are measured in hours. As a comparison most cars sold in the US today have a range of 250 to 300 mi on a full tank and can fill the tank at most service stations in under 15 min.
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Re: Anybody know anything about Solar or Geothermal energy?
Post by AirTech   » Fri Dec 19, 2014 7:59 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
Zakharra wrote: IC engines have to come, if only to make airplanes and for automobiles a reality. They are a logical step from steam to allowing for the common person to have access to their own vehicles, and much easier travel and trade.


For aircraft, Jets or turboprop. No need for (reciprocating) IC engines. Steam is even possible as are lighter-than-air alternatives.

For personal automobiles: why? Personal transport is a fairly recent innovation, and arguably an artifact of the auto industry's interference in profitable light-rail systems to increase sales of busses.

For the few cases where individual transport is truly needed or desirable: Steam while the Proscriptions are still in effect and electric after.

Internal Combustion engines are poison spewing polluters that Safehold has a chance to avoid, thanks to Merlin and OWL. Coal fired Steam and the associated pollution created by coal mining aren't perfect solutions, but can fill most of Safehold's power needs until the Proscriptions can be voided and cleaner options become viable.


Reciprocating engines work better in small sizes. Diesel engines would be an option for anything needing less than 400HP (which is the minimum size for an efficient gas turbine engine - you can build efficient smaller ones (and functioning inefficient ones) but the machining tolerances are very hard to achieve). This is why Cessna's & Piper's products still use piston engines. They use petrol (gasoline) engines for historical reasons but diesel aircraft engines date to the first world war. The down side is that they weigh about 20% more for the same power but burn 10% less fuel so for longer ranges diesel eventually wins.
Unless you roll out efficient batteries or a pocket fusion plant - both of which will attract unwanted attention from above due to their electromagnetic emissions - any aircraft will be using diesel or steam propulsion. (Battery powered aircraft currently can carry two people over 200 miles at 100 miles an hour - so definitely an option without the OBS).
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Re: Anybody know anything about Solar or Geothermal energy?
Post by AirTech   » Fri Dec 19, 2014 8:16 pm

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Aegis99 wrote:
Weird Harold wrote:How quickly will they move to Solar Power Generation once the Proscriptions are voided?

The same questions apply to Geothermal.


I would suspect the answer to the first question is never, as your question implies that solar is a "natural" progression of energy source after fossil fuels. By second implication you assume human energy consumption has at any point in history gone from more dense energy sources (fossil fuels) to less dense source (solar/wind/biofuel/etc). In fact the opposite is true, throughout our history we have progressively been harnessing more and more energy dense sources. At first just our own muscle power, then animal muscle power, then wind/water, then coal, then oil, then nuclear, and in the future we're talking about fusion and antimatter. Each step is about the energy density of the material.

As for geothermal a lot of the same conditions apply, hot water is in fact less energy dense than coal (1 ton of coal has a lot more potential chemical energy than 1 ton of water at 100C). geothermal is also extremely location limited, and has massive issues with corrosion in the piping from sulfur compounds. According to http://geo-energy.org/events/2014%20Ann ... 0Final.pdf there are about 12 GW of installed geothermal capacity globally right now (about 4.4 GW in the US). For perspective the 600 coal power plants in the US can generate 314 GW. There are two orders of magnitude gap between geothermal and coal power production.

Knowing the author and his stated thoughts on nuclear power, I imagine once the proscriptions are lifted you'll see Owl giving some detailed instructions on some pretty advanced coal power plants, with an eye towards graduating as soon as possible to advanced nuclear designs.


Geothermal steam uses the same turbine technology as fission nuclear - nuclear reactors don't go anywhere near the high temperatures and pressures of a coal fired boiler - 600psi max for nuclear vs 2100psi for coal. (Geothermal runs round 150psi due to the rock temperatures but using Kalina cycle systems the pressures are similar). So the logical path if you are moving linearly would be low pressure coal fired boilers and turbines, geothermal and then fission nuclear before using a fusion power plant for stationary applications. Mobile applications would go coal fired steam recips to turbines and then to oil fired boilers and gas turbines and possibly nuclear (and skip the inefficient diesels running on ultra cheap high sulfur oil - which steam boilers can't run on because the sulfur fouls the boiler and blocks the flue as it condenses). Steam engines have a much higher specific efficiency than a diesel or gas turbine but they weigh much more so its a balance again between the weight of fuel and the weight of the engine.
Last edited by AirTech on Sun Dec 21, 2014 7:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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